Villain: I'd been at the table for about an hour, so I don't have a lot of information, but he didn't seem like a great player for a few reasons. He engaged in a lot of table talk when in hands and was slamming the table when he'd lose. He check raised all-in to 2 players on a flop previously and while they were thinking he said out loud to his neighbor "I think I'm ahead" and ended up showing a draw. I had previously checked raised the flop with a flush draw which I showed him when he folded and he seemed good with his fold because he told me "you would have hit it anyway". He had been playing a fair amount of hands, but also wasn't wild.

Hero: I'd only shown down one hand, in which I had two pair with Qd9d which I raised in late position. I assume my image was somewhat tight aggressive, but not nitty.


$2/5 NL (9 handed)

UTG Villain($800)

Button Hero ($700)


Hero is dealt KhQd

UTG-Villian limps, folds to me, Hero raises to $25 on Button, folds to Villian who calls.



Flop ($57) Kd,Js,3d
V checks, Hero bets $20, V raises to $60. I don't think too long and call and he says "Oh no, I guess you have something good"


Turn ($177) 3c

V checks, Hero bets $60, V raises to $225, I call.

This is where I think I made a mistake in my bet sizing. Because my opinion of this player was that he wasn't very good, I wanted to induce him to spaz off. There are plenty of draws out there he would jump on weakness with and he may be bad enough that he thinks the kicker won't play and he can push me off a chop. I called feeling pretty good that he was taking the bait and because he limp called pre, I think there are not many hands with 3s, JJ doesn't make sense and there are lots of hands he could be semi-bluffing with. I'm basically fading A3 and KJ, but he could have lots of Q10, KX, flush draws that he could spaz with.

River: ($625) Qh

V bets $250. I call.

My question is in regards to how I played the turn. Thoughts on my sizing and thoughts on my line of thinking?

Thanks

Such a weird hand. I am assuming when you bet turn, you were putting him on a draw. It would be read dependent if I click back or bet, but 60 is way too small if you are going to take that line. Would size up to at least half pot. I lean more betting here though, since he clearly shows he would take this line with draws.

Have you seen him play any monsters this way? Or premiums?

The only one I recall was when he check jammed the flop with QcJc and had a flush draw and gutter. Stack to Pot Ratio was much different in that hand though, so a jam was his only sizing option for a raise.

I guess river is a shrug call. V has shown a lot of strength but through a line that is all over the place, button clicky. I assume V had AK, you rivered him and he berated you.... pretty close?

I would check back the turn, but as played fold. Double check raise is a super nutted line. I think we have to call this river though because he can presumably have KJ.

He had KJ. Him acting like he was concerned when I called on the flop should have been a huge tell. I'm not overly familiar with the Double Check Raise, so it's nice to hear from others that it's usually a sign of strength.

Fair to say this is a larger bet on the turn, fold to check raise situation? Or just check back turn and call a river bet assuming a brick comes? I'm just concerned that there are so many draws here that I'd give him a free card with if I check back turn.

I would just check back turn. When you do get double x-r, one pair will almost certainly be good less than 1% of the time. I wouldn't be auto calling a brick river either.

If he is a thinking player, which it sounds like, after seeing you raise preflop with Q9s, he is going to think you're a LAG, not a TAG. Which would also explain the line he took.

Looks fine to me. I like the turn bet, it’s a weird spot for the times he does have QT or something and has legitimately hit the brakes on his bluff attempt. And definitely don’t want to be folding a hand this good against a button masher.

Also of note: the 3 of flush is on the board, so he can’t have 3♦️x♦️


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If someone in LLSNL check raises you twice when you hold just TP, you're in trouble. They have better than TP so much of the time it isn't worth bluff catching.

Nice 3 outer on the river.

Eh, V has shown he will take this line with naked draws. No reads or blind, I would agree with you.

I think that’s why this is a good thread. Because normally this is true. Here, I don’t think so. Dude could just be spazzing or making a big overplay with like KT or something (unlikely but not impossible).


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He hasn't done it on two streets in a row. And our total time playing with him is 1 hour. I do agree I'm not folding TP to this villain the first time he does x/r with the reads we do have.

Easiest way for me to come to the conclusion that this is an easy fold is, what is your worst value hand on the turn? Yeah, probably KQ, and this combo blocks draws. There are plenty of better hands to call on the turn with.

This whole discussion makes me think of when people see someone raise pre flop with T7o, then call a river crai with one pair because of it

Except we aren't talking about him raising with trash. We are talking about him taking this line with naked draws. His spazzing isn't pre, it's post. Especially when he checks turn after flop action, I am putting him more draw heavy. Raising again there is reading to me more like a bluff (now results wise, I am wrong. But just calling it like I see it). I think he'd do this exact same thing with AdQx or any diamond connectors.

I don't because I've seen these player types before and I've literally never seen a double x-r bluff live

We have one confirmed hand where he semi-bluffed with a draw. Doesn't mean he's going balls to the wall with every draw any time he gets one.

Why is shoving with a draw spaz anyway? Could've been a good play for all we know. Have you never bluff shoved with a draw? I've done it with less.

I have seen it happen for sure three times, one of which was air, not even a draw.

I think double check raising is random button clicking, and based on OPs direction, he seems like he is spazzing. Don't have a problem with raising semi bluffs, but to do it twice seems weird. Especially on a 3 which should be a brick most of the time.

It’s not that I disagree with you browni and 67o, that the range is likely strong. It’s that “strong” doesn’t really rep much. Like I’m surprised he even felt like what he had was worth a double value xr. From there, like 3’s full? Quads? To have a lot of value, he’d have to be incredibly wide


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I don't fully agree that turn is an easy fold, mostly because of modest bet sizing from hero both flop and turn. If hero bets turn, i think larger is better and also easier to fold to a xr.

River is obvious call.

Why not raise the river all in for 200 more? We’re ahead of KJ much more often than we’re behind to JJ. I don’t think V is bet/folding KJ on the river when it’s 200 more to call into a pot of 1200.
I probably fold turn, just because I don’t see the double x/r line often at all, and I’ve never seen it as a bluff. But that’s arguably too conservative given the reads that we have that V is spazzy, and the fact Villain isn’t really representing much on the turn.

Edit: is it crazy to think that this might be a spazzy line with AA? Or even AK? If V can have AK (given preflop) I’m more inclined to raise all in on river. I’m also more inclined to fold turn.

OTF: I don't like your bet sizing. You've giving him the odds to call a draw:

Board: KdJs3d
Equity Win Tie
MP2 65.18% 62.63% 2.55% { KhQh }
MP3 34.82% 32.28% 2.55% { 22+, AJs+, KJs+, QTs+, AdTd, KdTd, Ad9d, Ad8d, Ad7d, AJo+, KJo+, QTo+ }

AP, check the turn. He's mostly like either ahead, or he's on a flush or perhaps a straight draw. Do you think he would raise with just middle pair? The only cards that are good for you on the river are a K or a Q no diamonds. If he bets the river on any card but a K or Q, you can fold.

One of Ed Miller's five top things to do to make you a better poker player at low-stakes live: "Don't call a large bet on the turn or the river unless you have the nuts or the near nuts."

AP, fold the river. The only hand you beat right now that he could have is KJ. Think ed miller again.