Hero(UTG): Young kid dressed like a tourist. Normally plays extremely tight but has a tilted image after losing four big showdowns in a row and being bluffed out of two large pots with no pair/draw. Have been limp/calling pre then folding many flops so probably perceived as a fish. Stacked V earlier for $250~ eff when he limp/called pre with AT then check/raised on a dry T hi board vs my AA.

V(UTG+1): 20 something black guy. Always buys in for $200-$300, on 3rd buyin which he ran up. Have never seen him 3B pre in 4hrs of playing with him.

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with KK
Hero(1050) raises to 25. V(950) snap raises to 50. Hero raises to 150. V raises to 450. Hero???

Based on the fact I'm posting this it's pretty obvious I ran into the only hand that beats me. Even if I was on my A game and not tilted/stuck huge from previous pots I don't see how I can get away from this when V is clearly a fish. Can I really just chalk this up as a cooler? I notice that the majority of these shortbuying fish who buyin for $200 and run it up to $1000-$2000+ become insanely tight once they reach that certain amount because they are so scared to lose it, making big uncharacteristic folds.

Unless villian is a super maniac, should I usually just be flatting a 3b pre with KK this deep?

The two bolded parts is telling me totally different stories. Youre describing villain as a fish and that you cannot fold to him. On the other hand you have observed that he has not been 3 betting one single time in 4 hours of play. And now he suddenly not only 3 betting you, but he is coming in with the 5 bet also- wich is extremely rare even at 2/5. I mean, this is a monster 7 days a week- probably heavily weighted towards AA. What you see is what you get, its not like villain suddenly goes on aggression tilt with 99-QQ or AK after not executing a single 3 bet in 4 hours.

I feel this is leak that surprisingly many players do have: they dont put aggression into context, but are hiding behind labeling villain as "a fish i cannot fold to". A certain villain can absolutely be a fish who plays 80 percent of hands dealt and being a calling station postflop, but that doesent mean anything when he is showing you this kind of aggression preflop. Its a totally different ballgame. When a passive call happy fish who hasnt been 3 betting preflop in many hours of play suddenly becomes really aggressive, your alarmbells should go off big time.

I am not sure if i can manage to fold KK if i was facing this situation in game, but it should definetly be considered seriously because i think your up against AA a huge portion of the time in this spot against described villain.

Look him right in the eye and ask him if he'll show you if you fold. You'd be surprised what some guys would say.

Call me fishy, but I'd somehow convince myself he's also playing KK and I'm chopping the pot - terrible.

Thats just wishful thinking- and as you mention yourself pretty terrible. Playing to chop is not very attractive at all IMO.

Its like the fish who stacked off pre against me last session with 88 and fistpumping when i table my AK "yeah i know you had AQ or AK". Like flipping for his stack is that huge, and every other parts of my get it in range pre has him totally crushed. Its just wishful thinking- he knows he is beat, but "put me on AK" instead of QQ-KK or AA because that is the one hand he is flipping against and dont being totally dead.

Limp/calling fishy players don't 5b pre without AA ever

If you haven't seen him 3bet in 4 hours, why are you 4 betting him? Are you hoping that he folds? If you had called, even if you knew for a fact he had AA, you could at least set mine.

A lot of players think this is a cooler, but when you create the situation where his range is just the best hand, it is your fault, not just bad luck.

I disagree with Venice a bit. I don't mind the 4-bet because he can definitely have TT-QQ in his range, and those hands are likely to flat a reasonable four bet and likely stack off on a raggy board. If he is 3-betting specifically AA, then yeah obviously just flat and set mine, but I have yet to see someone 3-bet/fold with JJ to a reasonably sized 4-bet. Giving him the chance to "put you on AK" is a good thing in this spot.

Once he 5-bets he has AA like always and you just have to fold.

i would call or shove and hope for a king to show and no aces

Lol dont do this. Set mining when you know your beat pre? Smh


Honestly I almost never would fold kings, but in this spot you might have to... I would fold it face-up too

Gross spot as always. Gilmour nailed the issue. Did you end up finding the fold?

NEVER fold this face up.

If I was at your table and I knew a 4b/5b shove would take you off everything but AA im eating you alive all day.

AP against this villian im folding. folding KK F@$&*! sucks but COME ON does he EVER have QQ?

It's easier to say fold in a forum. In live action the temptation to shove this is overwhelming. Thinking back on it I've been in this 4 bet or huge 3 bet situation (97% of 2/5 tables never get anywhere close to 5 bet) with KK four times I can remember. I'm 2-2. I got lucky and spiked a K on the turn once and the other time the dude was super tiltsy with AJs.

Right but he also would know that the table would feel that way & come at him with lesser hands, & he can take advantage of that.

He would only fold to this one villain in this one spot... So let him wait until a fish tries to bully him like this w a lesser hand

Part of improving your play is being able to make the right decision that you would make in a forum, & not get caught up in the moment...just like folding sets & AA post flop when you know youre beat

I agree with your premise, of course. But I think it's easier to fold a set of aces post flop than to fold KK pre - I mean only one hand beats us.

Absolutely, i can count on 1 hand the amount of scenarios ive thought folding kk pre is smart...this just happens to be the rare occasion

One of Villain's mistakes is that his 3b and 5b ranges are too narrow. That means we can exploit him by folding KK when appropriate.

If we let Villain know he is making this mistake, he will widen his range and play closer to optimal. We don't want him to do that.

Muck KK face-down. Keep exploiting Villain.

This

150 BB's deep? Sure, call the shove. 500 BB's deep? Just fold man.

D

lol..... this post makes me giggle.

If you don't set mine when you know there is a chance you are beat when do you set mine?

Also, what does folding face up do for you? Absolutely nothing.

This a huge 5 bet in comparison to his 3 bet. These situations are tough to comment on because whenever they pop up the V always has AA.

But I honesty think you can for this pre flop.

This is faulty reasoning. One of the common mistakes that LLSNL players make is to not 3b nearly light enough against players with wide opening ranges (or just in general not Nb light enough against players with wide (N-1)b ranges). When you show that you're capable of folding a huge hand pf, you're encouraging those players to move closer to a correct pf strategy and are thus giving up a huge edge. Being able to fold a premium pf because we know with 99% certainty a Villain has a better premium is awesome. Those Villains are NEVER folding KK when we have AA.

Just wondering OP... How did this turn out? Did you fold? Woulda been nasty if he didnt have kk

AA i mean