Quote:
Originally Posted by OvertlySexual
And you re absolutely right, that he only needs to be shoving only a fourth of his Queens to make it an EV+ for us. And this is true regardless of whether I raise to 250 or 195 or something. It's not easy to exclude with certainty that he doesn't shove his QQ 1/4 of the time, though it's not a given either. But this the spot where the hand hinges on being a call or a fold.
No, actually.
Say you 4b to $175. Now its 39% equity required. You should not 4b/call a shove unless you think his range is much wider then [KK+, AKs, and 1 QQ]. (Although, all it would take is just adding in AKo and you're good.) But generally, a smaller 4b means you probably would not be technically getting the right price to call.
The thing is, in real time, I'm just not going to be folding KK preflop. Certainly, I'm never doing the math to enough precision to make this kind of decision. And I'm fine with this because, in reality, it only takes a very small amount of "non-AA" hands in villain's range for it to be correct to GII with him and any reasonable amount of dead money, when you have KK.
As a sidebar, I just personally think there are a few things in LLSNL poker that you should not do for less then 300bb. 1) is folding a flopped set. 2) is folding KK preflop.
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OP...
I'll say something about the LLSNL forums. Today, the consensus is that you should not get KK in preflop for 180bb when your opponent 5b shoves from the button, given the situation you describe.
You will find though that the advice can change over time, or as a result of a few minor details which change. Of course, in poker the answer is usually "it depends". But it amuses me when the details on which it depends are de minimis.
For example, in
this thread I was thoroughly flamed for advising against getting it in with QQ facing a 5b shove. Certainly the situation is a little different -- and apparently straddling makes our opponents 5b-shove range super wide
. At the risk of opening up myself to the flame throwers again, I'd just like to point out that on another day, you might find yourself reading advice that is contrary to the gospel you read just a few months earlier.
Anyway, even though it looks like the advice ITT was to fold your KK to a 5b, in reality, folding there would almost certainly be a tremendous mistake, even if you had 4b smaller and "didn't have the equity", because all we need to have happen is for Villain to spazz out 1 time in 20 (5%) for you to get enough residual equity to make it right.