2/5 Having a leading range? - Live Low-stakes No Limit Poker Forum

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2/5 Having a leading range?

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11-11-2018 , 09:43 PM

Dtrain555

centurion

Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 133

200 blinds deep
I open to 20 in lp (lag), btn (tag) raises to 70.
I call and we go heads up

Flop
885

I have a lot of nothing here, but a portion of my range is very strong made hands and decent draws. I definitely want to go three streets with my made hands.

Should I lead or check raise?
I almost never lead into the preflop raiser; however, I dont want it to get checked behind.

Additional question, if you are the tag should you check behind with a lot of overpairs here?

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11-11-2018 , 09:45 PM

feel wrath

The Situation

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 29,873

general questions aren't very useful.

what is your range here and what is your villain's range?

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11-11-2018 , 09:55 PM

ImAllInNow

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,856

I don't feel like there's almost any spots to have a leading range after someone 3-bets and you call. With a big hand, you'd never want to give up on the very likely c-bet from him.

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11-11-2018 , 09:56 PM

Dtrain555

centurion

Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 133

I guess my betting range would be 68s to T8s and A8s (10 hands) plus 76s and 97s (8 hands)

His range TT+, ATs+, AJo+.

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11-11-2018 , 10:01 PM

MikeStarr

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 7,962

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtrain555

I guess my betting range would be 68s to T8s and A8s (10 hands) plus 76s and 97s (8 hands)

His range TT+, ATs+, AJo+.

Most TAGs dont 3 bet hands like ATs but if he does, I would check my big hands to him and lead certain other hands into him. Its doubtful that youre going to play enough 3 bet pots with him and for them to get to showdown, for him to ever figure out what your doing.

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11-11-2018 , 10:23 PM

feel wrath

The Situation

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 29,873

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtrain555

I guess my betting range would be 68s to T8s and A8s (10 hands) plus 76s and 97s (8 hands)

His range TT+, ATs+, AJo+.

so faced with a 3bet range of 1010+, ATs+ and AJo+, which is approx a 6.5% range (I've added KQss), you are calling this 3 bet, out of position with a range that includes 76s+, 68s + and A8ss (so presumably all suited Aces OOP)? Somebody who calls with this range also calls with all pocket pairs, which means your calling range is 16% of hands

Do you understand that this is a huge leak? Your range is 40% against his range and he has positional advantage and the initiative in the hand

before worrying about whether to have a leading range on a paired board you should do some work on fixing more fundamental issues

Last edited by feel wrath; 11-11-2018 at 10:31 PM.

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11-11-2018 , 10:33 PM

Dtrain555

centurion

Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 133

Quote:

Originally Posted by feel wrath

so you are calling a 3 bet with 76s+, 68s + and presumably all suited Aces OOP?

before worrying about whether to have a leading range on a paired board you have significant other leaks to fix first

Yeah, I’m a little spewy at times, but 50 to win 90. suited connectors are 40% against two overs, so I don’t think it’s that bad. My image also helps me get paid in other spots too.

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11-11-2018 , 11:03 PM

6bet me

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 3,885

The best way to play your range:
1) x/c flop with gutshot+, any pair, any Ace high with bdfd. No leading range or x/r range.
2) x/c turn with decent draws (OESD+) and decent pairs (99+). No x/r range.
3) x/r river with strong trips+ and some busted draws. Then x/c river with weak trips and strong overpairs.

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11-11-2018 , 11:14 PM

coachnorowski

centurion

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 130

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtrain555

I guess my betting range would be 68s to T8s and A8s (10 hands) plus 76s and 97s (8 hands)

His range TT+, ATs+, AJo+.

I dont see how you can win at this game with such a wide 3 bet calling range.

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11-11-2018 , 11:17 PM

#10

Badreg2017

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 1,682

In theory no because you are getting smashed range vs range. He probably has a 2:1 equity edge.

If you think you have hands like 86s then you are arriving to this flop with at least 185 combos of hands. You have maybe 14 combos of 8x and 55. That’s not much, you are just getting smoked.

If you are leading 8x your checking range is incredibly weak. A hand like 66 is damn near the top of your checking range. You going to start stacking off with 6’s everytime you check and he barrels 3 streets?

If you have exploitative reasons to check however then go for it.

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11-11-2018 , 11:35 PM

#11

Dtrain555

centurion

Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 133

Ok thanks.

Sorry if this question is a waste of time.
Sometimes I try to reinvent the wheel and come up with weird lines.

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11-12-2018 , 12:19 AM

#12

Badreg2017

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 1,682

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtrain555

Ok thanks.

Sorry if this question is a waste of time.
Sometimes I try to reinvent the wheel and come up with weird lines.

That's great. Don't just do things because everyone else does them and they are "standard". In general things are standard for a reason, but two years from now all sorts of things we think are standard are going to turn out to be mistakes.

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11-12-2018 , 12:50 AM

#13

6bet me

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 3,885

This is actually an interesting situation exploitatively though:
1) Is villain always calling 3 streets with KK+ if we lead? If not, can we literally barrel air for 3 streets?
2) Is villain always barreling 3 streets with KK+ for thin value if we go into x/c mode? If so, could we slowplay our strong hands and barrel our air?

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11-12-2018 , 01:07 AM

#14

feel wrath

The Situation

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 29,873

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6bet me

6, this right here is the type of **** that gets you into trouble

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11-12-2018 , 01:38 AM

#15

Dtrain555

centurion

Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 133

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6bet me

Lol I think forcing people to make mistakes can sometimes be more profitable than waiting for them to make mistakes.

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11-12-2018 , 01:43 AM

#16

Avaritia

Confirmed 2500 hour haver

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 12,248

4b pre

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11-12-2018 , 03:38 AM

#17

jdr0317

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 8,231

There's very few boards I'd consider a lead range on in 3 bet pots. Because even though villain is often high card and good PP focused, so are we to call it.

It has to be a board that we have some sort of significant nut edge against the PFR. Like an 876r where we can show up w/ all the sets, T9s, and maybe even some 2 pairs. On 885 we just won't have enough strong hands to balance out our play without completely nuking the portion of our range that doesn't donk the flop, so our bluffs will be spew and our value may not even be maximized.

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