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2/5 Hands versus 10/25 player 2/5 Hands versus 10/25 player

04-27-2024 , 03:59 PM
V is probably a 5'8-5'10 young white girl who is clearly a studied winning player. Believe she has won tournaments in the room and is a capable of semi-bluffing and bluffing for her stack.
Opens Q8o and T9o in CO time raked

V hasn't played with me much, but has the impression I am a winning player, but not as good as her.

Hand 1:
She raises EP I call on BTN with KJs and both blinds calls.
JT4r flop (80) she check. I bet 30 she is only one who calls. Turn is low card brings in a flush draw for not my suit, something like JT42 board. bet 55 (into 140) she raises 175 and snap folds to jam for like 1k.

Hand 2:
Open AdQc UTG get 3 callers.
Flop 80 is AT8r one diamond.
Bet 30. One caller in field. V raise 105 on btn.
I call, original caller calls.
Turn 3d. I x. Caller x. V bets 250 into 400.
Hero tanks at least a minute and jam for 900 effective with her (Hero Covers, she has to put 650 more in to call). She asks for count and does pot odds real quick and calls with some kind of draw. My hand wins at showdown don't get to see what she had, can't remember river, but it was sort of connected with the T and 8. After hand she said sort of to herself out loud that she should have checked back turn and jammed river.

Last edited by ylizarin; 04-27-2024 at 04:05 PM.
2/5 Hands versus 10/25 player Quote
04-27-2024 , 06:43 PM
You played both hands really, really poorly, and got bailed out immensely in Hand 2 by V having one of the extremely few hands that can call your jam that you’re beating.

In both hands you made the same mistake: you made all-in bets that should only be called if you are way behind. If V was bluffing she can fold; if she was value betting she can double up.
2/5 Hands versus 10/25 player Quote
04-28-2024 , 11:21 AM
H1 - I would just call her turn raise, not jam.

Reasoning - she's repping a hand like JT, 44, or 22. Her bluffs would be flush draws or some ace-wheel combo that might be a combo-draw. She might also have a hand like 98s or KQs that picked up a flush draw.

Our hand has equity to improve against JT, is drawing dead against 44/22, and way ahead of her semi-bluffs, which we want to keep in.

We have removal to JT, which helps narrow her range a bit. She might not raise JTs from EP, and there are only 2-3 combos available. Likewise, she might not raise 44/22 from EP, and there are only 6 combos. So her range here is likely pretty weak compared to our hand.

When we call her turn raise, she's either going to give up and check to us on the river, or continue to barrel. We can fold if she bets huge on a card that completes her most obvious draws, but call on a brick. If she checks to us on a brick, we can bet thin for value, or check back. If she checks to us on a card that completes a draw, we can check back.

H2 - harder to do the hand-reading here, and harder to know what to do. This is where the reads become more important.

As the PFR and OOP to two opponents, I think it's better to start with a check on this somewhat dry flop. We can check-call a bet, or even check-raise.

Here, I'd be check-raising at some frequency, depending on who bet, and how much. If she bet small, I'd be very likely to x/r. If the MP player bet big, I'd be more likely to just flat call, especially if she already called.

Her raise over the MP caller is pretty strong. She's repping 2P+, in a spot where her most obvious semi-bluffs can just flat call IP and realize her equity.

The 3d on the turn is basically a brick, other than adding the BDFD. Her bet sizing is a little weird, at just over 1/2 pot. I'd be thinking she has a hand like J9dd or 97dd, hoping for folds, but giving her draws a good price to chase. I'd think 2P+ would want to go for a larger sizing.

The stack depths here are awkward. When you jam, she's getting 2:1 on a call. If she thinks she has 15 outs, she's getting almost but not quite the right odds to call. In theory, your jam should fold out all her draws, and only get calls from 2P+.

Alternatively, if you just flat call, the pot will be $900, with $650 back. If you know she's capable of jamming as a bluff, I'd think she'd be jamming the river a lot if we check to her, no matter what card comes.

I think I'd just flat call turn, with a plan to block-bet any river card for a small size, like $150. This will put her in a tough spot. She can jam for another $500, but she'll be laying you better than 3:1 on a call, in a spot where she could have a lot of bluffs that get looked up light, and her made hands could be behind.

She'll probably just fold her bluffs, and flat call with all but her most nutted value hands. It'll be hard for her to raise, even with T8, when we could have AA, TT, 88, AT, A8s, A3s, etc, and we're unlikely to be turning JJ-KK into a bluff.

We'll lose some value by not letting her bluff, but we avoid having to call off a jam in a spot where she's pretty polarized to 2P+ or nothing.
2/5 Hands versus 10/25 player Quote
04-28-2024 , 02:36 PM
OP here.
H1:
- my reasoning was she should be betting her overpairs multiway on JT4r with multiple opponents to deny equity from potential straight draws with 3 opponents. Especially when she just check calls my 37% pot bet on the flop instead of check raising, I heavily discounted any hand better than KJ. Maybe she plays AJ this way, but it would make more sense for her to bet it or x/raise it IMO. I could have very easily checked back the flop and she would be giving a free card to multiple opponents. I put her on AK AQ or AXs with a backdoor draw.
The turn is a brick, what is she repping for value? Only slowplayed hands, the bet makes no sense. Rather than give her the opportunity to hit her draw I decided to deny equity by going all in cause there are a lot of bad rivers. A, K, Q, 9, 5, 3 could all bring in straights, is hero bluff catching on all these cards if she decides to jam. It's almost a 50% chance a straight completing card comes in. Is it better to just call her bullshit raise on the turn and either bluff catch or fold the river, instead of jamming, to protect us from the rare times this is some sort of multiway slowplay? Shoving now lets us win the pot and prevents her from improving or bluffing us off with a jam on the river. When we almost certainly have the best hand at the moment, she was attacking the small 33% sizing on the turn I used.
H2: Think Docvails analysis sort of makes sense
2/5 Hands versus 10/25 player Quote
04-28-2024 , 08:11 PM
I don't like either hand. Shove in Hand 1 is really bad. Shove in hand 2 isn't bad but call and call brick rivers is better vs. described opponent.
2/5 Hands versus 10/25 player Quote
04-28-2024 , 10:12 PM
idk man you seem to be overthinking stuff bc she's a "10/25" player. i will say i enjoy you adding her height to the description
2/5 Hands versus 10/25 player Quote
04-29-2024 , 01:10 AM
Interesting hands. Lots if people get FPS when they move down. I think this happened. Or maybe she is just rich and not so great.

1st hand is fine imo. For her, there is a massive shift otf. Vs have almost everything when it's checked to her. When you bet and it folds to her, there isn't much to worry about any more. She peels vs a small bet, then tries to take it away.

I don't mind your shove as she probably has good equity. She didn't nec have to pick up a BDFD.

Also, I can't really imagine her doing this with a 2nd best hand like j9. So you're not folding out a hand that you should get value from. It's just a question of if you want to play the river or not.

Hand 2

I think this is pretty spewy from her. Her comment at the end also makes little sense to me. What value hand checks that turn after having a raise called by 2 people, then shoves river?

I'd bet AQ otf as it's too big to check imo.

I'd actually entertain folding to the flop raise vs a lot of people. I mean, this is some real galaxy brain ish as a bluff. Like, trying to level the utg raiser into folding because it looks exactly like you have a big ace and she is saying she can beat it.... but you could also have all 3 sets and maybe ATs. A8 and t8s wouldn't really be that odd. She is really threading a needle here

I would often fold turn. I guess V2 would get aggressive with a set or 2p by now, but maybe not. You can still get sucked out on if ahead.

say v2 has AJ and her bluff gets through you. He's still gonna call a lot.

So I'd tend to give up unless I had v pegged as a maniac.
2/5 Hands versus 10/25 player Quote
04-29-2024 , 11:26 AM
Hand 1 - would bet the turn larger - just call the raise. Shoving is terrible - you'll get snapped off by 2 pr/sets, and fold out all her bluffs/worse hands.

Hand 2 - she raises the flop then bets the turn 3 way. Jamming once again is terrible - calling is even close given this was 3 way.

Not sure why you're jamming in these spots - you got lucky here but reality will catch up and you'll be burning money.
2/5 Hands versus 10/25 player Quote
04-29-2024 , 12:27 PM
It seems like you got this idea about a 10/25 player and that made you play badly. You don't know if she is a winning 10/25 player. Also, not all 10/25 regs are better than all 2/5 regs. It is a different style of game at 10/25 and more variance.
2/5 Hands versus 10/25 player Quote
04-29-2024 , 05:53 PM
Adding to the recent comments, these hand histories remind me of something I heard a poker coach say, about people who move up in stakes thinking they need to change their game up by getting more aggressive or otherwise doing something fancy.

I think the same could be true when it comes to playing at our usual stakes against opponents we know are typically playing higher. So V comes down from 10/25, and we think, "oooh, she's a 10/25 player, I can't let her bully me, I gotta show her I won't be pushed around."

Meanwhile, being too aggro in spots like these is just torching money. OP did get lucky in both these hands.

Looking at V's play...

H1 - assuming she had some sort of draw or was raising for value and protection with TP, her fold to hero's $1k jam into a $370 pot seems pretty standard. Nothing to criticize in her play there, unless she was raising with air.

H2 - assuming she called the jam with a 15-out combo draw, her call isn't terrible when she's getting 2:1 pot odds, if she thinks hero has any bluffs in his jamming range, especially if some of his bluffs are worse draws, with worse showdown value when they miss.

Her comment about wishing she checked back turn and jammed river somewhat reinforces the suspicion she had a good draw that could have repped thick value with whatever the river card was.
2/5 Hands versus 10/25 player Quote
04-30-2024 , 04:59 PM
H1 - Should be a 3 bet. KJs is a decent hand, you're in position.

H2 - C bet should be bigger. 10/25 player is more prone to bluff at 2/5 usually. The money means less. The trill is less.
2/5 Hands versus 10/25 player Quote

      
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