I am playing at local casino and for second weekend in a row they got a $2-5 to run. However, there are two very wealthy players that have no concept of any poker strategy at all. They both play blackjack for obscene amounts of money, often having $15-20K swings. So far they have been targeting each other, betting $100+ on flops with $30 in them, calling each others bets of $300 with middle pair or gut shot draws, etc.

Hero is a white male in his twenties, a regular in the room but an unknown to V2 but has played several sessions with V1. In for $900 and has $1050 in front of him.

V1 is a white male in his 50's that loves to see flops. He actually sat down when the table was starting and didn't realize it was a $2-5 table but decided to stay. He loves to call down for cheap, often floating flops out of position with A high or runner draws. V1 is on his second rebuy, gained a little back and has $800 in front of him.

V2 is a white male in his 50's, might be the biggest whale at the casino. He loves to gamble and has no understanding of any basic strategy whatsoever. He has been limping every hand and raising preflop about 25% of the time. He is in for about $4000 and currently has $1200 in front of him.

V1 ($800) limps in EP.
V2 ($1200) limps in MP.
Hero ($1050) limps A6 in MP.
CO limps.
SB completes.
BB checks.

Flop ($30): KJ5

Checks to Hero.
Hero bets $30.
Everyone calls $30.

Turn ($210): 5

Checks to V1, bets $100.
V2 calls $100.
Hero raises to $350.
Folds to V1, thinks for a bit and calls $250 more.
V2 instantly makes it $700.

Hero?!?!

given description of V2 you are never folding, i'd call to keep in V1 and get it in on the river.

+1,

no way in hell I'm ever folding here to these villains that you described. Given your descriptions I could see one Villain having A5 type hand and the other having a flush or even KQ type hands.

80%+ of the time you are good here, remaining 20% of the time EP limped with KK/JJ and just got lucky. But regardless, given your descriptions I'm never folding here and want to get it in. Just pray blank river...

Is this a serious question? After your descriptions there is no way you can fold in this spot. This is what you are waiting for. What are you afraid of? K5 or J5? A5 and KJ (in his range) you're okay. If you play with these types of players you have to be willing to get it in here.

He has a 5 and (maybe) a flush draw at best - maybe even a flush with a five - 45

Anyway - did you call?

I don't think I'm good enough to raise in this spot (as you did) and I'm definitely not good enough to fold here. If he has 5/5, oops.

I'm definitely not folding vs these guys. 3 of a kind and smaller flushes are a big part of villains range. Shove.

Does anyone think hero should raise PF to isolate the whales since effective stacks are deep and hero has position? Also, it's never a bad idea to play as many big pots in position vs these types of villains.

Am only worried about v1 as v2 can be doing all kinds of button clicking and hand overvaluing. Furthermore although v2 does have more rando full houses in his range, he is so likely to be doing something absurd that if we lose to him it is a cooler. Other guy sounds like he will chase loads too so I will ship.

Level?

Raising pre w A6s pre destroys your implied odds. You flop a flush like 1% of the time. You flop a flush draw like 16% of the time IIRC. It's better to keep your implied odds high so you can draw for cheap and then prison rape them when you hit vs inflating the pot and hoping you flop/turn gin. And if you want to talk insane value, you hit a back door flush and you can extract some serious value all the while minimizing the majority Times you will miss.

And let's not forget life sucks when we raise and get 3betted out

I mean its not like we are on the btn here. So the optimal line is to play the draw and keep your implied odds high, hit and THEN extract max value. In this spot vs these villains that will be more +ev vs majority time you whiff

+1

there's no value in taking down the pot pre flop and with these villains, as proven, when we hit gin post flop we're still getting paid off without even trying.

there's too much rubbish on this forum about limping pre. if we can see a cheap flop against villains who don't fold with high implied odds hands like Axss or low pockets, we should do it every time

I see your point about how this hand does not flop a flush or or flush draw enough. But can't we still get value when we hit trips or even TP on the flop. Since these guys will make a lot of mistakes post flop and continue with ATC, wouldn't it be better to play a bigger pot?

^ sometimes 2p2ers here way overestimate their post-flop edge even against bad players.

one of the real edges we do have is 1) hand selection and 2) understanding position. here its probably best to muck pre

^ I agree that people tend to overestimate their edge but these guys just seem really bad and you should be able to extract value from them even if you flop TP

With players this bad, limping OOP w Axs with super high implied odds being as deep as we are is insanely profitable as long as we can keep our IO high and there is no raise. Normally I do fold Axs OOP but if I have droolers at the table and a passive table that doesn't raise a lot pre, then limping with Axs OOP is fine.

This POV is one of the biggest leaks I see all the time. Just because you are up against droolers doesn't mean -EV lines suddenly become +EV. I call this thinking "the donk fog" and we get "donk tunnel vision" where we start to overvalue crap hands, like A6 suddenly becomes AK just because V is a drooler. Just because we are up against droolers doesn't mean we should be itching to stack off 200bb w A6 on a ace high board....

More than naught, what happens is you stack off on an A 3 5 J T board w A6 and the droolers has A8 and then you convince yourself its the right play because he stacked off so light completely oblivious to the fact you only beat A2 and A4 because you have donk tunnel vision...

No one is advocating stacking off with tp with this hand. Just getting a few streets of value if villain flops something like 2nd pair and calls us down.

Yes this is a serious question. If I am beat, then it's just a cooler. I wanted to see what line people would take between calling and shoving.

More than likely I think V2 does have a 5, but never 45 as the 5 was on the flop.

I decided that shoving was greater than calling. I didn't want to call and see a K, J or 5 and I also didn't want a 4th heart coming on the river.

I can't see a reason for just calling, but some people at the table advocated it but didn't have a reason for it.

uhh your descriptions of villains is insanely skewed. just saying, never seen someone is losing 4000 a week on poker and still have no idea what "poker strategy" is other than extreme utilization of fold equity...

but let's say your diagnosis of these two whales is 100% accurate. you didn't mention their game postflop, except that V1 is a calling station. if you said V2 was a spew monkey post flop, easy call. but here its a fold = remember the pot is limped so any two cards is in V2 range including J-5, K-5.. and if he can 3bet with trip 5 only, then good for him

If you are not raising and are not folding, does that mean you are calling here?

I am never raising here because I don't want to inflate the pot with such an inferior hand. Obviously I am playing for flush and two pair value as opposed to top pair. I had position on both of the very bad players, so why not see a cheap flop with a hand that has a lot of potential to win a big pot.

the reason to flat is that the only hand you are legitmately beating a three-bet to is a semibluff or bluff from a whale. given that scenario, you want the whale to hang his own neck.
Also, 1)you hold the ace of heart
If the river comes another heart consider it a blocker. Does he shove anyway? can you find a fold then?

The reason I don't raise here is because I'm not good enough to fold vs these players if I'm raised and I'd rather keep the pot small here. Perhaps I'm losing out on some value, but I prefer minimizing the variance in this spot. So, yes, I'm calling.

It isn't skewed at all, it's actually 100% accurate. Read it again. V2 has played poker just a handful of times at the casino. He is currently down $4000, doesn't lose $4000 a week playing poker. He usually plays blackjack and slots where he has swings of tens of thousands. During this session he hadn't folded a hand pre flop and he often called with any pair or gut shot.

I agree that V1 or V2 can have a hand like K5 or J5 in their pre flop calling range. However, I also feel that both would bet two pair or a set on the flop, regardless of the monotone board. Since neither did, I couldn't really put them on K5 or J5.

The reason I posted this hand was to see what was better, calling or shoving on the turn. When V1 bets $100 on the turn, V2 calls, Hero raises to $350, and V1 just calls instead of shoving, I don't think he has a full house ever. When V2 raises a bet, a raise and a call, I kind of changed my thinking and thought maybe V2 could have K5 or J5 and was just scared of the hearts. But I felt it was more likely that he had just a 5.

Are you referring to me raising the initial turn bet of $100 to $350? Or are you referring to just calling V2's raise to $700 and leaving $300 behind instead of shoving?

If I was playing against a solid regular, then yes, I agree with "the only hand you are legitmately beating a three-bet to is a semibluff or bluff from a whale." However, these players can show up with all kinds of stuff, their ranges are not just weighted heavily toward nut hands.

If I decide to flat and the river comes another heart, I still have the nut flush. But if V2 had just a 5 with no heart, is he going to call the remainder with four hearts on board? I doubt if I flatted the turn and a heart came, he would just shove without a heart. He isn't a complete moron, I am sure he would understand that any heart beats him.

Why would I need to find a fold? Are you saying if a heart comes and he does shove, could I fold? That would make sense, there are 4 hearts and I have the A and he is shoving anyways... But why even put myself in that situation?

V1's only got like $70 left in a 2k pot if hero and V1 both flat. V1 has to know, before you've even acted on V2's 3bet, that he's either folding or committing. There is merit to hero considering flatting vs shoving, but I feel that decision is super unlikely to affect V1's decision at all here.