2/5

Game Dynamic - Very loose, with lots of limping and calling raises loosely.

Preflop:

UTG (~100bb) - Big Whale who limped.

Two other insignificant players (at most 100bb) limped.

CO (~100bb) - A loose aggressive who is playing at least 50% of his hands limped.

Hero (covers all) - Limped in with AJ

Note: I think the UTG whale view me as a LAGtard but the CO view me as a TAG.

SB (50bb) - A tight, nitty player mini raise to 4.5bb.

All called.

Flop: (~30bb) 936

All checked to the loose aggro CO who bets 20bb.

Hero?

Raise pre. WTF at limping this on the button?

As played I'd call.

The reason I limped in is because this is a game where I expect people to call very loosely.

If I were to get to heads up with the whale, I think I will need to raise to at least 8bb. I will do that with AK or QQ+ but with AJs, I do not feel comfortable doing that.

As such, I am treating AJs as a speculative hand here rather than a hand where I will be looking to get value with TPTK. This could be more profitable than raising big and getting heads up with the whale?

Opinions?

If they'll call big pf raises with kj or AT there's a ton of value in raising pf, especially if their limping lets you exclude AQ+ and JJ+

You really have to raise pre with this hand, especially IP. If too many people call pre, oh well, bigger pot for you to win. As well as most people will check to the aggressor, giving you the opportunity to bet if you like to or peel another card.

as said above, raise pre. mandatory in my opinion.

as played, i like a click back to induce someone with a lesser draw to go crazy...

So what should my raise be like? I am sure there will be at least 4 callers if I raise to 5-6bb. This will bloat the pot to 20bb.

For me to be comfortable of getting it all in with 4-5 players, I can really hope for only a flopped TP. But, a pair of jack on K or Q high board? Can I commit to this pot then? Hardly? As such, imo, compared to AK, AJ is a far inferior hand to build a big pot in multiway pot.

PS: imo, whenever I am building a big pot through big preflop raises, I am usually looking to commit when I hit TPTK. But with AJ?

You should also be looking to commit on flops like the one you just got

Agree. I am more willing to commit on this flop where I can get the nuts as compared to a single pair hand.

So you are advocating call or raise? ?

Raise pre must must must raise pre.
If you raise 30ish pre and get multi callers you can get your stack in otf w/o it looking awkward.
As played... I'm raising here 2/3 pot

This is a better board to get your stack in than tp IMO

Probably have to jam here. The pot already contains 50bb. Calling is out because you will have to fold if you whiff on the turn sand the CO fires again.

@stacking chips

hmm... possibly. This could a leak of mine but I need a more compelling logic to persuade me that raising is more profitable than limping here.

Hope to hear from others why raising is much better than over limping. Surely we aren't raising for the sake of raising or just because this is a premium. But what is the logic behind it?

As in, if there are just 2-3 limpers ahead of me and they do not defend their limp often, I will raise whole day long. The reason is because I can easily trim the field and get into heads-up or 3 way pot where I can make cbets profitably.

But if 4/5/6 way pot and people do not fold their limps easily? Am I still able to cbet profitably? Or do I build a big pot and then giving up after that since I am missing the board most of the time?

We have position and a good hand, you must raise the button here, you'll get value from players limp calling with very weak aces. Now I'm jamming it in

If the players are loose and will limp/call with hands like AT or KJ but not AQ or JJ then AJ is premium value here. The fact that there are two loose players in makes it more likely you caj get an spr you want and stack off comfortably on A or J hi flops

I agree with you on this. If I am raising preflop, I will always commit if I hit TPTK.

But assuming that I do not have a suited AJ here, my default is actually to fold AJ because I do not think that AJ off suit is a hand that I can play with profitably, especially in a big pot.

Or, if there is a raise in front of me and I have AJ offsuit, I fold this whole day long even with position.

This probably explained my reluctant to raise AJs here since I do not view playing AJ hand (for TPTK) in multiway big pot as a profitable hand?

Anyway, this strategy works well for me online (I am a winning player at 25 nl for over 300k hands at pokerstars).

How about live games?

Well lets think about why we raise pre flop.
1) playing big stack poker is why we play (me)
2) max value for our hands
3) AJs is a top 10 hand.
4) we have position

This spot I'm raising very wide..
44+
45s+
Ax +
All broadway cards.

I'm pulling my hair out right now.
( this is very basic knowledge)

Of course I know all these.

I agree- AJ being a top 10 hand is likely to be the best hand here. But have you ever considered the equity of AJ in multiway potof at least 5 players? In a multiway pot say 5 players, AJ only has an equity of 25%, similar to a player who called your raise with KQo and even a pocket pair has 19% equity. So what if AJ is a top 10% hand?

In addition, so what if you have position? How do you make use of this position to play AJs in a bloated pot profitably? Is it because you can cbet (bluff) profitably with position (which I doubt u can)?

Why would you want to play a limped pot with so many players. You are going to be in position so you should be raising wider to build a pot against lesser hands.

What do we worry about in this situation limps by AA,KK,QQ,AK,AQ? I doubt it. In other words your hand when you hit your hand will most likely be huge. Add to it that others see a big pot and will most likely commit with lesser hands. Very easy raise in this spot should be standard.

On the other hand, if I can reduce the number of players to just 3 (if I raise), then my equity rises to almost 40%. KQo 30% and pocket pairs 30%.

With position, I can now cbet profitably and take the hand down often enough through cbetting.

Thus, raising with AJ is mandatory if I can get 3 players to call and go to flop.

But, in this hand, I am expecting people to call very loosely when I raise. That is what stopped me from raising preflop.

I am playing AJs as a speculative hand rather than a hand for TPTK because I am quite sure that people are not going to fold their limps if I raise preflop to say, 5-6bb.

I may need to raise to a minimum of 8bb++ to get to heads-up or 3 way pot. The question is, is AJs a hand good enough to raise 8bb+?

If people won't fold any cards to a raise of 5-6bb and you don't feel comfortable playing AJs multiway in a bloated pot then raise to 10BB?

You are so ahead of their limping range, and often dominate their limp calling range... dabble with your preflop raises til you get the right amount of callers consistently.

Poker is about getting the money in while you're ahead... If you limp in, like you said, you are barely ahead of the field 5 ways. This is why a raise is so much better than a limp.

As played... I think with the nut draw and two overs, and a wide range for the flop bettor, a min-raise is better than a jam, as you're more likely to get it in with underflush draws.

So you are saying that I should be raising and the main purpose is to thin the field?

I agree with you in this aspect.

Hmm...Possible. I should be raising big enough such that I am able to get 2-3 callers only. And I do not have to worry about playing bloated pot here because my AJ is ahead of their range. The only worry is that I seldom get paid off on A high board and I do not flop Jack high flop often enough to make paying 10bb preflop worthwhile?

You don't have to get paid off every time you hit for it to be +EV.
Thinning the field not only makes your postflop play a lot easier but boosts your equity advantage compared to a multiway pot.
Your c-bets will be more effective with less players.

Well if the 8bb takes down the preflop then the answer is yes. If it puts you in a spot playing against 1-2 other people especially if its the whale then yes. If it puts you headsup in position the answer is yes.

Even if you raise to 40 in this spot and you whiff the flop its a very small % of your stack and you most likely had some great equity to the pot. Now on the other hand I would feel you should be able to take some of these pots away when checked to as well even if you miss. If your style of play is to only be able to continue if you flop hands whether its a limped pot or a raised pot people are going to take advantage of you in the game. You will lose a ton of value.