2-5 at winstar.

Hero $1.2k (BB)
Villain $500 (UTG+1) Middle aged white male, glasses, conservatively dressed. Has been playing tight/passive, but seems to be getting frustrated and impatient over last half hour or so; bleeding chips. Almost always slow plays huge hands, but aggressively protects hands like TPGK.

Villain and 4 other players limp into pot.
Hero BB Q4 checks.

Pot: $30

Flop: Q54

Hero checks (intending to CR any bet, take down small pot)

Villain bets $30

Fold around to hero

Hero raises to $80

Villain thinks a few seconds, looks irritated by my checkraise. "Raise. $150."

I read villain for a Q, but no better, but I think he's too frustrated to fold here. He only has $350ish left, so...

Hero moves all in.

Villain snapcalls.

Turn blank. I ask, "Two pair any good?" He responds, "Two pair is way good."

River 4

Hero wins $1,025 pot with QQ444.

Hero: "What did you have man?"

Villain (pissed): "I had nothing."

Seems villain must have had either OESFD or TPTK, correct?

So, the question is, given my read, is the CR/4b shove OTF optimal? Or is there a better line here? Should we have played TP/BP more cautiously? Obviously this time it worked out perfectly, but can we play this better?

Great OP and description of villains.

Do you often see players bluff at limped pots? For me this is rare, limpers tend to be passives, passives don't bluff so checking the flop is a nightmare, even more so with top and bottom than bottom two because there are less two pair combos. I think we lose a tonne of value from way more hands that will call a bet than we make on the turn when somebody catches up a little. We obviously also end up losing reasonable sized pots to people who improve on the turn than would have folded on the flop.

If this is after you own with the flush draw and this guy saw that it is clear 4 bet shove, although we obviously lose a decent % to sets.

You're correct, this was about an hour after my flush draw hand, and this villain did see the hand. My image here would probably be best described as unpredictable.

I put the likelihood of villain having a set here as about 5%. He'd play a set way differently.

And I agree, checking the flop was not optimal. My reasoning was, someone probably has some kind of draw or a Q here, let's let them take a swing at it and then punish them, and force them to make an equity mistake to continue with the hand.

That said, yeah, I should have led the flop anyways. Thanks

I lead alot of hands so I lead here in case it gets checked through

Two pair is very suceptable to being out drawn. Your line is fine. Nice hand

Whether you lead or c/r depends on the agressiveness of the limpers. If any of the limpers are aggro, I preferr a c/r with TP/BP oop. The problem with betting out, is that if the first limper calls then the field will come along with most draws almost regardless of the odds.
I think you had the optimal line for the situation you described.

So do we want them to call with incorrect odds, or not?

of course we want them to call with incorrect odds

The point I was trying to make is betting out and getting multiple callers will decrease hero's equity if the callers are on different draws.
Lets say hero bets 1P otf. If limper A calls with a str8 draw, V2 is getting 3:1 and if v2 calls V3 is now getting 4:1. If V1 anticipated more Vs to follow (typical of many 2/5 tables) he was correct to call.

If you disagree give me some more feed back so I can learn a more profitble appraoch to this situation

Line is fine except for when you ask what villain had. Never ask to see the losing hand...

I don't like flop c/r. I lead flop for pot. It's a mw pot, no reason yo expect a bet and plenty of hands can beat you on the turn. A lead also keeps your range wider than a c/r, and people's calling range > their betting range.

As played, it was only good given your reads. Against a lot of players you would see 55 a lot if all the money went in for 200bbs, maybe NFD+pair. Against a lot of villains your shove would be very bad as it isolates the part of their rrange that does well against your hand. An alternative would be to call raise otf, and then c/f turn if FD completes but b/c or b/f on a blank depending on villain (b/f against tight players, bet small and call against aggro players who would shove their draws with these stacks. By letting aggro players make the llast bbet you are widening their range vs. what they would call your shove with).

Also, +1 on never asking a player whom you just beat who called you what they had. I am sure you didn't mean it, but you had no right to see his hand and it is correctly considered incredibly rude. I would just say nothing at all and if he says something to you I would just say something like 'gee, I just got lucky there, sorry buddy, I would have done the same in your shoes.'

The chips were already being shipped, the hand was over, and I didn't ask it in a rude or gloating tone. Afterwards I told him, "Sorry man, big blind special, I'm sure you'll get me next time." I say something like that almost every time I stack someone - it's important to me to win (or lose) with grace. But I am always going to try to gain as much information from every player at the table as possible, every chance I get, whether I win the hand or not.

You'd be surprised how some players launch into a big lengthy explanation when they are asked a question like that. Then you get the whole table talking about the hand, and next thing you know, you have new insights into how several players think.

I think you might have misunderstood the manner in which I asked him; if you were at the table, you wouldn't have considered it rude, unless you are one of those players that never likes to talk at the table, and is offended by people who do. I'm a salesman (as the name implies), I usually act kind and friendly to just about everyone

The stack was 100bb eff. Villain only had $500. I play the hand differently, obviously, if he's sitting on $1k+.

But yeah, with no read or different reads, of course I play it differently as well. I don't know that I would play it as you state however; letting someone catch up or get a chance to bluff me out when a flush card hits the turn seems pretty weak to me.

I think - and I may be mistaken - that I have to decide OTF if my hand is good, and either go with it or let it go. TP/BP is strong, but pretty vulnerable.

That was part of my reasoning in CRing the flop - if I bet, and get 3 callers (common in this game), I have no idea where I stand when the next card comes out, no matter what it is. By checkraising, I am likely isolating my hand against one villain, and I can apply enough pressure to try to work a tell or two out of him. And, I'm risking nothing if it checks around. If it does, and the turn card is scary, I can let go of the hand very easily, and it cost me no more than my BB.

Just thinking out loud still on this.

Sorry that i missed his stack size, my bad.

I disagree with you about your line. Think through ranges on the flop. Also, what hand do you feel would need to bluff you on the turn if a flush card hits?

I would agree with you if you had 55. I think top/bottom could go either way. I think getting it in on the flop against a reasonably aggressive opponent is +ev. I think waiting until the turn might be more +ev. Think about how equity changes for his whole range between flop and a blank turn. There are certainly negatives of waiting for the turn, like a scare card coming, which will happen 20% of the time. I think live people don't semibluff their draws as much, so when they raise in this spot their range is stronger. A thinking player could easily fold 45 here against you if you shove flop. So it comes down to tendencies, I am just saying that both lines have their purpose against different opponents.

Setsy
One of the very few times I am in disagreement with you. A flop c/r doesn't mean getting it all in otf. This particular hand did because the V 3! the salesman, and salesman's read was that V was weaker then 2P (for right or for wrong). In general, I prefer a c/r under this particular situation for the reasons the salesman gave above. Once you bet lets say 2/3-1P, all it takes is the first V to call to get this pot 4 way.
Obviously it depends on the aggressiveness and tendencies of all the Vs in the hand (which only the salesman was aware of). I have been in similar spots where where only nits and tags were in the hand and a lead out was the correct line. I have also been in spots where there were a few "gamblers" and fishies behind and a c/r would be a more appropriate line. Table dynamica and hero's image at the time would also play a significant role.
Generally oop hands S#*k, and maybe there is no absolute correct way to play them.

I always welcome thoughtful disagreement.
I am a little under the weather so even less sharp than usual. But can both of you help me understand what is so bad about multiple players calling our flop lead, presumably with a range that we have great equity against? So can you compare what you think the ev of that outcome is vs. the outcome you are going for with your c/r?

Below are 3 stoves adding one villian each time. granted these are extremes but meant to prove a point. The point is, as multiway goes up equity vs the field goes down. In the examples below once V1 calls with the FD the str8 draw is getting great odds then the TP+backdoor may feel obligatged to join in getting 4:1. Meanwhile heros equity drops from a favorite to 41% to 26%.
I feel this is logical but may be missing something. Obviously you can lead out for 2P but then only sets call (not a great line either).
The other positve for c/r is those few times where you get rediculous action behind you and the nitty setminer shoves, you can find a fold.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

990 games 0.005 secs 198,000 games/sec

Board: 4d 5d Qh
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 57.374% 57.37% 00.00% 568 0.00 { Qs4s }
Hand 1: 42.626% 42.63% 00.00% 422 0.00 { Ad3d }

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

903 games 0.005 secs 180,600 games/sec

Board: 4d 5d Qh
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 41.085% 41.09% 00.00% 371 0.00 { Qs4s }
Hand 1: 40.421% 40.42% 00.00% 365 0.00 { Ad3d }
Hand 2: 18.494% 18.49% 00.00% 167 0.00 { 7c6c }
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

820 games 0.005 secs 164,000 games/sec

Board: 4d 5d Qh
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 26.402% 25.37% 01.04% 208 8.50 { Qs4s }
Hand 1: 42.805% 42.80% 00.00% 351 0.00 { Ad3d }
Hand 2: 19.634% 19.63% 00.00% 161 0.00 { 7c6c }
Hand 3: 11.159% 10.12% 01.04% 83 8.50 { QcJh }

re: my previous post
There are always exceptions:
multiple Vs on the same draw would, of course, increase heros equity.
On average multiple Vs will have different holdings and different draws.

i dont like the c/r. yea you can get multiple callers on multiple draws that sucks. or you can get multiple folds and one caller w/ Qx. and honestly when you c/r someone who has Qx and leads there hes going to fold 99% of the time. so why dont you value bet him for 3 streets instead. also, when he 3b u on the flop your read of tight/passive should indicate a fold, you have one teeny tiny feeling that he could be getting impatient..you got lucky he didnt have a better hand than you here. if you think hes getting impatient and being ******ed then call and let him bluff away/value town himself. by shoving i think that he can fold all his air/Qx and yea he could call you with FD/SD here but hes getting the right odds or near it. id rather let him continue his bluff

So you lead for pot (6bb). You get called in 3 spots as you assume above. Total pot is 30bb. Your equity is 1/4 according to your numbers, or 7.5bb. So before considering the EV of future streets your bet had +1.5bb in EV.

Incidentally, you could get called by hands like 66-88 as well.

One thing to consider in leading vs. c/r is that when you c/r, the bettor gets to pick the bet size. So think about the Qx part of the range. If you lead $30 here at 2/5 Qx calls you 99% of the time. If you check, Qx bets $20 and you c/r, a lot of Qx is going to fold. So you let the cat out of the bag too early and let them get away for a cheap price. Alternatively, say they call because they think you can have a lot of semibluffs. They are most likely not putting any more money in, because if you bet turn your range is now too strong. Against complete droolers and if the stacks are deeper, c/r becomes better if you think they stack off. But if they don't stack off then if you lead pot, turn pot is $90. You can bet $60 and still expect to get called most of the time by Qx. So now you got $90 total flop/turn. Vs. if you had c/r his $20 flop bet to $60-$80, where you would have gotten less.

I am not saying one line completely >> than another. Just giving you my perspective.

Getting in to specific EV based on so many unknowns would take someone a lot smarter than me

However, let's say we lead out, and get 3 callers (very likely in this game).

Our flop was Q45 with two diamonds. Who is calling us?

Any OESD.
Any Q.
45.
A5/A4, often.
Any diamond draw.
Any diamond draw with a pair.

So, what cards destroy our hand on the turn?

Any diamond.
Any 2,3,6,or 7, potentially making straights.
Any 5,9,T,J,K, or A, potentially counterfeiting our 2p

So, aside from a Q or a 4 that boats us up, there are precisely 3 cards in the deck we don't need to worry too much about - the three non-diamond 8s, although, I see lots of players, even in 2-5, playing Q8 like it's a premium drawing hand.

So, basically every card in the deck is a scare card. We can't take any heat at all from anyone who plays the turn aggressively.

So, to me, this means, isolate the pot, and if you can get it in against someone whom we put on a weaker hand, get it in. If we CR and face heat from a player that you have to give respect to, let it go. If we check, and the table checks around, well, we are in the same situation we would have been by leading out, except we have invested less money, and are less committed.

grunch; don't really like the check raise on the flop; i think you are over-repping your hand. you kind of alluded to it by saying you wanted to take it down right there. thats a spewwy mind-set, really. if you are getting the best of it you want to extract value, while charging the draws, but not create a situation in which we are only getting action from better, and folding out worse.
especially if you are playing a villian who will pay off on the river if you dont get counterfeited, there is no reason to get it in on the flop. it's more profitable to play it str8forward imo. you can fold when you get counterfeited and save chips when you would be paying off if you got it in earlier in the hand. check-call/check-call/shove or bet/ bet/ shove.
you have to take risks to make money, or get max value. youre going to get drawn out sometimes, but just play poker post flop, and use your reading skills. if you bet enough so that they are making an unprofitable play by continuing, you are making money. the times you get min value when you just win one bet with the c-raise line make it not that good. you are really turning your hand into a bluff.

Dammit stampler. I had just about decided 100% that I played it right, then you had to put your 2 cents in.

I think I'm just going to ask the dealer not to give me TP/BP when I am in the BB anymore. That will save me a lot of hassle.

checkraise 44 or 67 if you think you can get action. (even that i'm prolly playing str8forward.)
if youre looking for a fold, and not seeing the turn, then you might as well have air.

don't nessisarily listen to me, i'm a nit.

Keep in mind that 6 players saw this very coordinated Q high flop. In a 3way raised pot I agree with betting out and playing this pretty str8 forward. In a 6way limped pot and in the worst position, I really think this is not a best of circumstances to maximize betting lines. I believe narrowing the field takes priority under these circumstances.
As more and more villians see a flop, hand values start to decrease in their respective value. If hero had a set leading out would be preferred. TPBP is a hair above TPTK. Would you take the the same line with AQ?

Isn'r rule #1 not to go broke in a MW limped pot without the near nuts?