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2/5 deep (500bb) river sizing question 2/5 deep (500bb) river sizing question

08-06-2013 , 11:55 AM
2/5

Its quite relevant to note that the bad beat jackpot is gigantic and the room is flooded as a result.

V1 is an 55-60 older white guy, ABC reg that I've played with a bunch of times. He basically relies on the fish pool to pay off his semi-nitty play. He can hand read at a basic level, but mostly plays ABC with a pretty tight pf range. Overall, his play skews towards bad. Normally, its pretty rare to see him with much more than 2BI in front of him. He was already up pretty big when I sat down, not sure how he got there, but from his constant chatter I know he's been at the table for 7hrs+. He has about $3,000 in chips and bills.

V2 - mostly meaningless, but is a pretty clear fish. $1,100

Hero - been easily the most aggressive player at the table for the past 2-3 hours. 3betting with some consistency. Got picked off on a 3 barrel a little while back. But overall, running well and (mostly) playing well. $2,500

There is somewhat of a dynamic between V1 and Hero in that V1 likes to make comments regarding just about every pot I've played in concerning my "aggressive tendencies". He's noticed me iso'ing weaker players but hasnt done anything about it. We've played a few pots, but none of any real consequence.

PF:
V2 raises in UTG+1 to $20
Hero calls in CO with 68
V1 3bets from the SB to $110
V2 folds
Hero thinks for ~20 seconds and calls

:::Villain's range here is JJ+, AJs and AQo, weighted towards JJ+ and AK.

Flop: $230
J 10 6
Villain leads for $110. Hero calls after some legitimate deliberation.

Turn: $450
3
Villain bets $110 again without much consideration. Hero calls after ~10 seconds or so.

::::V1's range on the flop still contained his AK and AQ holdings, as he will fire those when he has the initiative. But, his bet on the turn narrows his range to almost solely AA-QQ and AJ. JJ is still included somewhat, but with that holding, there is a decent percentage of the time V1 is checking flop and turn to put in a check raise on the turn. He has no bluffs in his range here. His smallish bet is almost certainly designed to "keep his customer" rather than a blocker bet or something of that range. I briefly considered raising, but decided against it. Its worth noting that he almost certainly considers his turn bet to be "big enough" as its $100+ and, for whatever reason, he took the time to fish one of his bills from under his stack and bet a bill+10.

River: $670
10
V1 checks.
Hero? Effective stacks have $2,200 behind.

Comments on anything welcome. This is maybe not the most exciting hand, but river sizing has been one of the issues I've identified in my game recently, so seeking some advice on that. Particularly in this sort of situation, when I hit with speculative hands deep. I've been purposely opening up my holdings when I get the opportunity to play weaker players deep, but its unusual enough I run out of expertise pretty quickly. I'm sure the 10 scares him a little bit, but the flush doesnt.

Another element, after his lead on the turn, I know I have to hit the 6/8/diamond to win the hand. If he does have an overpair, he's going to call almost any bet on the river, so bluffing out of it is less of an option. I want to make sure I'm betting the right amount on the river when I do hit. The river pairing the board slows this dynamic down somewhat.

I'm sure there are other elements in the hand that could use help as well. Thanks.
2/5 deep (500bb) river sizing question Quote
08-06-2013 , 12:14 PM
Fold pre. As played I'm okay with flop call, I'm raising turn here to 275. On river I'm betting something like 350-450
2/5 deep (500bb) river sizing question Quote
08-06-2013 , 12:20 PM
No way I'm folding this pre for $20, given HUGE stacks.

All around, I like the play. Flatting the c-bet is standard with any piece, and he should expect villain to double.

I can't decide if we should bet smallish to ~$250 to get a crying call, or overbet ~$850 to make our line look FOS.
2/5 deep (500bb) river sizing question Quote
08-06-2013 , 12:21 PM
I really don't like flatting a 3bet preflop from an ABC older white guy regular who just 3bet out of the blinds. Have you seen him 3bet before? (or even calling the UTG raise to begin with)

However he sounds like the type of guy who would value bet the river with a better hand, so you will want to be an amount that he will call his his AJ, AA, A10 or KK. I would bet/fold about 1/3rd pot for value, or an amount you think he would call with aces or kings.
2/5 deep (500bb) river sizing question Quote
08-06-2013 , 12:33 PM
If he thinks your aggressive, go for fat value. Think for a while and bet a large stack of 450. He is either gonna hero look you up or he isn't and if you're gonna build an aggressive image you might as well use it.
Yes, sometimes you fold out AJ here, but if villain is as tight bad as you say, he is gonna have a hard hard time letting go of overpairs etc as he doesn't get many hands and would hate to lay one down to and aggressive guy.
2/5 deep (500bb) river sizing question Quote
08-06-2013 , 12:34 PM
My thoughts preflop:

I'm never folding to the $20 initial raise, with position on a bad player and possibility that blinds will come in.

Once V1 three bets, he has, IMO, the exact range I want to play against with a hand like this. Its definitely speculative, but I felt like we were deep enough to call and see if I can play a big pot in position.

On the flop:
I've got a piece and all my redraws (while relative longshots) are well disguised and play very well against his range. Next, I can peel one and see if he shuts down on the turn against his AK/AQ holdings.

Turn:
He makes a mistake here and makes it very hard for me to fold with the turned FD, getting better than 4:1 on a call and I should be able to get paid well, to very well on every card that hits me on the river. 6 or 8 being preferred to the flush outs. If he bets 1/2 pot+ here, I have a much harder decision and probably fold.
2/5 deep (500bb) river sizing question Quote
08-06-2013 , 12:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000
I really don't like flatting a 3bet preflop from an ABC older white guy regular who just 3bet out of the blinds. Have you seen him 3bet before? (or even calling the UTG raise to begin with)

However he sounds like the type of guy who would value bet the river with a better hand, so you will want to be an amount that he will call his his AJ, AA, A10 or KK. I would bet/fold about 1/3rd pot for value, or an amount you think he would call with aces or kings.
In regard to flatting the 3bet pre, he doesnt three bet a whole bunch and it pretty much centers his range at the top end. If I had something like A10 or KQ, I fold, as he is almost certain to have me dominated.

I'm never 4betting here against this villain, as he is almost certain to call or 5bet, and then I'm in a crappy spot with much worse stack to pot ratio.

I definitely employed some FPS flatting preflop, but the entire thought was there was a chance to play a pot with 500bb eff, hoping for a run out exactly like the one that happened. I'm looking maximize the opportunity now that it shaped up so well.

Other than the river sizing question, the other most interesting spot is the turn action. If I raise turn, I feel like it lights the bulb for him on the flush draw and creates an opportunity for him to fold if it hits. Additionally, if he calls and I miss, I'm in a super sticky spot as the pot will be ~900-1000 and he is going to check call most of the action, absent a shove/pot+ sized bet, even then I'm not 100% he's going to fold.

Last edited by blasted7; 08-06-2013 at 01:08 PM.
2/5 deep (500bb) river sizing question Quote
08-06-2013 , 01:20 PM
Preflop is obviously fine. Flop and turn are also fine, raising turn doesn't accomplish anything other than folding out any worse hands he might have, I mean he is never folding an overpair on the turn. Bet fold like 500 on river if he thinks your aggro, he'll just put you on KQ or something.
2/5 deep (500bb) river sizing question Quote
08-06-2013 , 01:23 PM
An overbet on river is interesting, I feel like he finds a fold a bit too often with hands he wouldn't to an 80% pot bet. I could be persuaded otherwise though.
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