2/5 loose game sticky villains most flops going multiway for a raise... Even big raises.

V1 (665) tight 40 something white guy who has been whining about being card dead. Just doubled thru to $665.

V2 (2500) late 30s semi maniac. Raises big, capable of bluffing and merging his range. Frequently seems to bet in spots where it is unlikely he will get called by worse or get better to fold. It could be that he goes for rediculous lay thin value but I think it's more just aggressive button clicking. We have some history playing a few big pots.

Hero (1800) recently moved from must move table. Mostly playing tight and opening in position to this point but haven't had any hands go to showdown.

Straddled pot. V2 limps, one other limper. Hero 4-4 on the button elects to overimp. V1 in SB raise to 65. V1 range AK, TT+.

Utg calls v2 calls hero considers folding since v1 doesn't have stack to offer correct implied odds for set mining. However since it's close and we have v2 deep in the hand I decide to call.

Flop K74hh. V1 now leads tiny for $35. Utg folds V2 raise to $135. Hero raise to $375. V1 ships $600. V2 over ships creating approx $1200 side pot.

Hero?

So what are we worried about exactly. The tight V maybe but he is well covered and can have all combos of AK AA and I suppose KK is possible. Thing is we are only covered by V2 and vs that discription you would have to rip those cards from my cold dead hands before I'd fold bottom set to these guys.

Call, it's worth thinking about but this is just always a call when we have the 3rd nuts on a k high board with a flush draw.

You think v1 bets 35 into this pot then 5! Ships AK or AA?

I think the side pot makes it interesting... since you are essentially playing against 2 separate people since V1 is seemingly stronger...so even if he is crushing you, the $1200 more than makes up for possibly being crushed by KK vs V1 I think?

And when you say K74hh - the entire flop is hearts or we have 2 hearts?? That opens up the ranges a lot if the 74hh and the K is not. Because you are behind a flush (but have every opp to boat if you are), and you are crushing top pair with flush draw...

V1's flop bet is really strange, but your hand is pretty strong - and in all reality we are looking for V2's money moreso anyway.

For me... I think this is a *sigh* pull my hat over my face and just push all my chips into the middle.

Unless you absolutely think you are behind V2, why fold? Even if you remove the $600 from V1 - it is a $2400 pot between you and V2

Fold pre, snap call now

Folding pre is absolutely criminal this deep with an awful agro player.

Get this in all day everyday extremely happily.

Frankly I have no clue exact what his bet means because it isn't typical. What I do know is the SPR realative to his stack size is low and he must know it won't be hard to get his stack in. AK and AA still looks like the nuts to him in this spot when we have a maniac in the hand.

Ok so let's say worst case villan ends up having top set we have 1200 effective vs a spewy villan. We should will be stacking off. Wasnt your plan to stack the someone with a set when you called 65 pre flop? It feels a bit mubsy to me when we get a best case scenarios(calling pre with 44 and flopping a set) and we are contemplating folding. If you ever fold here calling pre flop is really really bad and you should of just folded.

We aren't in the business of hero folding sets on boards like this, we are in the business of shoveling money in the pot and likely getting tons of vakue.

+1. Agreed.

Respectfully, I question this logic. I hear things like this a lot and it is a very narrow view. 5 and 6 bets are not the norm and require re-evaluation. Auto calling off here is worse than carefully evaluating.

As for preflop I actually think it's close. The PFR is usually going to drive the action so he's the target of our set mining. He's not deep enough so we need to justify set mining based on the merits of the other deep players. A lot of the time set mining vs a third players limp-calling range won't be profitable.

Agree with pokerarb and Mr_Doomed. Not considering folding against this guy. We are basically behind 77 only vs V2 and V1 could have AA or AK.

Why is calling $55 to win $600 extra close? You should have 10 to 1 right?

Because you're incorrectly assuming he's going to stack off every time when the actual percentage is much lower.

I'm not assuming anything...

I'm just asking...

So what is the rule on setmining?

That is a perfectly acceptable answer how ever you seem worried about the wrong villan. When we are talking 120bb effective and we call a large raise and flop a set as a default we are stacking off when we hit a set. Especially on this board. You seem to be thing to soul these guys for the nuts but in reality we should be assessing a range of hands. Vs any realistic range this is a call, as stated I think it's great that you gave this some thought before snap calling. But in this universe what it comes down to is we have the 3rd nuts and we are crushing there ranges.

Sometimes set over set happens(1/100) but that just is what it is. Maybe if your read on the deep villan was that of a real nit or OMC I may make a hero fols. But in this spot if we aren't ahead of V1 we are likely way ahead of V2 and that is the effective stack by 220 bb. I think in spots like this it's tough to not be results oriented the times we do get coolered. They way you are talking I feel like we lost this pot.

I usually like to see 15:1 implied odds. But will adjust down based on other factors. In this case, additional dead money, deep 3rd opponent I felt made it profitable. Heads up vs a tight guy capable of folding overpairs sometimes or with a wide opening range that can't stack off ill pitch it preflop if only getting 10:1 heads up.

I don't feel 10:1 is enough to cover the times we either don't get paid or flop it and lose to flush, straight or overset.

Bart Hanson at CLP used to preach 10:1 minimum set mining odds and has since increased it to 15:1.

Thanks!

What in the hell are we scared of? Only hand that catches us right now is 77. Shovel the money in and fist bump.


For Krumi, there are alot of "rules" on set mining. One of the more accepted ones is given the effective stacks(as long as V's eff stacks are larger than yours) If you're committing less than 5% of your stack to call, you should. If it is more than 10% of your stack you should not call and in between is a judgement issue.

However, that rule does not really understand the loss with small pairs and middle pairs. If I am in early position you should generally be folding 22-66 sometimes even up to 77--especially if you are open limping. I consider early position to be SB, BB, UTG, and UTG+1. The reason being is you can only hit a set I think 1 in 8.5 times but if you do you need to making 8.5 times just to break even. So on the flop with those small pairs it's just so difficult to play them post flop and not very profitable to just play fit or fold. (Notice I did not mention late position play with pairs, I play them entirely differently depending on Villains and board texture.)

People go back and forth on this constantly. Usually you want a minimum of 15x for a variety of reasons. Vs certain players you need better. We can't assume a villan is always stacking off. Sometimes they have hands like AQ and we flop a set on KQ5 flop. Villans just aren't stacking off with 2nd pair that often. If I was more math savy I could break down the odds better but the fact is there is a thread all about implied odds etc.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...-odds-1310066/

You have some reading to do.

V1's hand looks suspiciously like KK. It looks so much like KK, I would kiss the main pot goodbye.

The side pot makes a call worth it though. If we assume we're sacrificing another $225 to the main pot just to get to the side pot, we're putting in $1,425 to win $1,200.

My pokerstove isn't working right now, but I think our equity in the side pot has to make a call worth it. V2s range is obviously heavily weighted towards draws if we assume KK for V1. He's got 6 combos of 77. The rest is all draws. 56 and 77 are the only nightmare situations. If it's set over set over set, then it's a very serious cooler.

Plus, we do have at least one out for the main pot and there's a non-zero chance V1 has a hand other than KK. So, we've got at least a tiny amount of equity in the main pot.

My poker stove wasn't working at the table either but your ranging is in line with mine at the time.

Considering a fold here isn't that bad a play. Considering v1's range, obviously TT-QQ would not be played this aggressively. You're ahead of most of range (all combos of AK and AA) and only behind KK. So you're absolutely crushing his range.

However, v2 makes it a little interesting, he is loose but he's not absolute bonkers. He would never limp with AA, KK and AK. The only reason why he would play this way is if he made a ridiculously bad play with K7 or K4 and flopped 2 pairs, but even then given the action it is just too unlikely. So in the end 77 makes the most sense and he might occasionally turn up with 56hh. Therefore, I don't mind a fold here with 44.

This is one of the situations where people flop bottom set, snap gets it in and most of the time and writes it off as being a cooler. But if you think about it, given the play, what are you beating in v2's pre-flop limp call range?

What sort of sense do we have about how V2 plays his nut flush draws?

I agree that V1 has KK most of the time, but occasionally shows up with AA and AK.

Most of V2's range should be 77 and 65hh. If we include Axhh, that widens the range considerably and makes this a must-call.

From my observation v2 tends to play his draws stronger as semi bluffs when he senses weakness or capped ranges. Vs significant signs if strength where he has no fold equity he's more likely to call unless he picks up more equity. His draws would tend to be combo draws if he's willing to get them in deep. And honestly I only recall him shipping it with draws when he has lost a lot if his stack and not topped up. I'm not saying he has no draws in his range here but shipping anything less than 15 outs in this spot would seem out if character when I've already 4!.

You labeled V2 a "semi-maniac". This is a must call against that kind of V. If the description is not accurate, why did you write it?