This hand is from last night at a local underground 2/5 NLHE game. One leak that I still have in my game is that I sometimes have difficulty playing against aggressive players with deep stacks, and I think that’s what had me feeling like I had no idea what to do in this spot.

V1 (UTG+2, $450) - Middle-aged white guy, been playing poker forever, hosts weekly PLO games at his house. The definition of tight-passive. Regularly limps/calls with big pocket pairs preflop and slowplays monsters postflop.

V2 (MP, $900) - Early 20's, mainly a tournament player. His range is pretty wide in most spots and he tends to play aggressively. Has been running hot tonight: like 4 or 5 times in a row he’s opened from early or middle position with hands like KQo or QTs, flopped TPGK, made a large cbet and gotten called by worse. (Also called a check-raise from another aggressive player on a Kh9h8x flop w KJo and then called a shove on a blank turn.) Capable of firing multiple barrels, especially when semi-bluffing with decent equity.

Hero (BB, $1,200) - Playing extremely tight tonight due to table dynamics. Have only played a few hands, but have shown down the goods every time.

On to the hand:
UTG limps, V1 limps, V2 limps, HJ limps, CO limps, SB completes and Hero checks his option in the BB with 74.

Flop ($30): Q74
SB checks, Hero leads for $25, UTG folds, V1 calls, V2 raises to $125, folds back around. Hero ???

My thoughts: I’m pretty sure I have V2 beat right now, but there are a ton of turn and river cards where he can put me in a really tough spot. Also, V1 could be slowplaying either a strong made hand (somewhat unlikely since I block most of the sets, but V1 can definitely have QQ in his range here) or some kind of monster draw. V2 can have any Qx (not sure if he’s ever limping Q7s, but I wouldn’t rule it out), as well as all the draws. So basically every card that doesn’t give me a full house is going to be a scare card on the turn.

Felt like this was a pretty tough spot with bottom two pair, and got a little lost on how to approach the rest of the hand. How should we respond to V2's raise on the flop, and what is our plan going to be for the turn and river?

Pretty gross spot IMO. Do we really think passive V1 is flatting a set sandwiched between a LAG and a competent player? I highly doubt it. So I'm going to be more focused on V2, who's range we should crush. Unless he's the fishy variety, his range is going to be filled with Q's/pair + FD's, pair + SD's.

Given V2 description, he sounds like what dgiharris called "Awesome Possom" - young aggressive tourney guy who can't lay down because he's just...so...awesome...

I raise to $300 and ship a non 3, 8, or turn.

edit: I just ship turn after clicking it back OTF, his range is so weak here IMO.

It's unlikely, but definitely possible. Here's a hand history from a couple of months ago involving V1 that illustrates his typical play style:

UTG limps, V1 limps in MP, Hero checks from the BB with 83s. Flop 832r, Hero checks, UTG bets $20, V1 flats, Hero raises to $90, UTG calls all in for $20 more, V1 flats again. Turn is an offsuit J, Hero puts V1 all in for $50 more, V1 calls with KK.

This is tough. Bottom two pair doesn't play great on this board with a huge SPR. It sucks even more that we are out of position... i.e. if we call here, and check turn, we give Villain a chance at a free card to draw out on us.

I think your two options are: 1) call flop, donk-lead non-heart, non 3, non 8 turn, or 2) fold now. First option you are playing for stacks and have to be comfortable calling a shove or getting it in on the river.

Based on how aggressive Villain is, he would have raised pre with QT+ and probably 77+. So he has either Q7s (2 combos), Q4s (2 combos), 44 (3 combos), 56 (16 combos), and lots of combos of flush draws.

I think I hold my nose and go with option 1. Btw option 1 is also dependent on V1... If he calls he has us beat, but we may still be able to get $450 from V2 to break even.

I don't like minraising flop bc we give V great odds to draw out on us. Either raise big on flop or call flop and lead turn imo. With V1 behind I think it makes more sense to call.

Welp. This spot sucks lol.

I'm not sure how, "correct," my advice is going to be, but these are my thoughts -

Your hand doesn't feel strong enough to raise nor weak enough to fold. I would call and then reevaluate from there.

First we wanna see what V1 does. He usually has Qx or a draw here even if he occasionally has the nuts.

Scenario 1 - I'm assuming that if V1 has the nuts we will hear about it now and can easily fold if he 3-bets everyone.

Scenario 2 - I'm also assuming most Qx hands and weaker draws V1 has will fold. That leaves us heads up vs. V2. Now here's where it can get interesting. We know V2 is going to keep firing every scare card in the deck unless he happens to have flopped 2 pair+ or something as well. Thus, we can not fold to one scare card (unless it's the Q imo). We have to call down all the way and hope he's just barreling, especially because of your image. Of course, if a second scare card hits the river, say it runs out J 8, we can fold the river. On the other hand, let's say we get lucky and hit a beautiful 2 or some other blank on the turn. Now we can check/shove on him for value because our hand has far better equity now than it did on the flop.

Scenario 3 - V1 calls w/ his more premium draws and *maybe* sets???. Now I don't feel so hot about seeing a scare card as one of them is likely to have us beat. So I'm just folding to any bet if that happens. I also don't feel that great about seeing a blank but I'm still c/shoving because we just can't assume that V1 has a set. Plus V1 doesn't have enough chips for us to be overly concerned about him.

"never go broke on a limped pot"

tournament players thinks highly of fold equity. in tourneys, his line is more TP charging draws. also, we can exclude Q7, Q4, 74 on his range for because tourney players never limp these hands ever!

your read says he overplays his hands and tend to be on the aggressive side. being OOP, i will proceed with caution and check flop.

ap, i will either go with my hand or fold. im nit and fold, though i still thinks his hand is mostly TP.

you think his hand is mostly top pair and your advise is to fold? Get it in and be happy about it.

It is a gross spot.

I would raise to $300.

I think he could have top pair and draws alot here.

We block a lot of set combos.

Call

Raise to 275-350 on the flop

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Interesting responses so far.

The toughest thing for me about this spot was the huge amount of bad cards that could come on the turn. In addition to any , 8, or 3, we also have to worry about 9's, 10's, J's, and Q's possibly giving villain 2 pair or trips. Also, the fact that V2 is likely to be double barreling all of those cards means that if we call on the flop, we're probably going to have to call down at least one more big bet even on a lot of scary turns.

Does anyone like taking a line of bet/call flop, then (assuming V1 doesn't come along) check/call every turn that doesn't pair the Q, then check/evaluate river?

So effectively V1's range is uncapped if he's a chronic limp/call pre?

V2 as described would have raised pre w/ 56hh imo, so if anyone has a strong combo draw its V1. V2's range is capped at a weird 2 pair. V1's flat is weird with action behind its a limped pot he cant expect a lot of raises so i'm gonna say he has some middling pairs and some Qx and maybe some hh overs like Ahx.

I click it back here and peel planning to lead non heart turns that are 9 and higher.

Basically i think we're good vs V1's range overall but not thrilled. so i want him to spaz shove it in w/ his low stack (he's got to think PPs and Qx are decent) or he's folding and force V2 to a decision, we have better relative position against V1's action there.

Its gets weird when V2 flats or shoves though. I probably puke call the shove from V2 and if V2 cold calls im not sure if we should shove now or peel :/ im leaning towards GII right now and hope he comes along w/ the dead money overlay bottom two is just too vulnerable imo.

V2's range is got to mostly be some kinda hh draws Q7,Q4 - his pre flop action really limits his range as described unless we're not being given enough info about him and he'll limp EP/MP w/ a small pair sometimes - but aggro tourney player doesnt strike me as a limp pair player.

OP tell us more about V2 maybe?

no but if this is a line you'd usually take then i think you're never getting called by worse if you take my line which makes me think ive provided bad advice and disregarded your image a bit too much :/

EDIT: or not, bottom two still sucks and i'd be happy just GII against what V1 might shove w/ 100bbs given dead money in pot unless he completely will not felt w/o 2pair+.

Result: I folded to V2's raise on the flop, V1 quickly folded behind. V2 showed the Q.

I really hate my play here, because I know a call is hugely +EV against V2's range, but I didn't want to have to be faced with a tough decision OOP when there are so many bad cards that could come on the turn and river. So basically I left a lot of money on the table because I was scared to put too much of my stack at risk with a strong but vulnerable hand. Definitely a leak I'm going to need to work on.

noooo results too fast!

Agreed and I'm folding there... never..

Was writing this out before I saw the results but:

We're out of position to an aggressive tournament player...against these type of villains, I believe you should've been playing bottom two fast. We can all agree that given his description, his range is wider than most TAG cash game players...including his range to be raising on the flop.

Stack sizes and position make this a difficult hand in this spot. Keep things simple and take initiative. Advocate re-raising to $325 on flop....shoving $500+ all-in on turn as long as it's not a Q or heart. Believe there's a much greater chance of V raising with a flush draw rather than 56 IMO. Never folding in this spot against described V though.

Yea if you're folding in spots like this you're just playing right into villain's strategy and will get run over by players like him.

I get that any J/T/9/8/3/ is a scare card. But unless villain has 7 cards, most scare cards will not hit him which is why I feel that calling him down when only 1 scare card hits is ideal. And like I mentioned, we can still c/shove blanks which I think is super profitable. Yea, sometimes he'll hit or show up with a huge hand and you'll lose a big pot, but you should still win plenty often enough to be profitable.

And if you're not ok with losing a big pot once in a while in spots like this, you probably shouldn't be playing at these stakes.

yeah this is one of my leaks honestly

I think it's a marginal EV, high variance spot where we may be ahead, but we hate most turn cards, and we are out of position going forward.

I think folding is fine if you are on a short bankroll and want to avoid a high variance spot.

It is ok, imo, to occasionally pass up +EV spots, especially if you are playing on a short bankroll.

^^^ this post pretty much hits the nail on the head as far as my rationale for folding in this spot. I am sorta under-rolled for 2/5 right now (current available bankroll is about $4K, but I can dip in to my income from my regular job if I wind up hitting a bad downswing), I was up about $800 for the session at the start of the hand, and I decided I would rather just fold and book a decent win rather than risk my stack out of position in such a high variance situation.

While it may be true that folding in this spot isn't that bad, obviously this mindset is not optimal if we actually want to be able to make money.

I don't disagree with this necessarily, but the flip side would be "if you are having to pass up +EV spots in cash games dues to bankroll considerations, then you may be playing too big and should consider playing at a stake that you're properly rolled for." I guess it's a little bit of a balancing act between playing at the stake where we stand to make the most money and not handcuffing ourselves by playing too far above our bankroll.

i disagree that folding is a good play here even underrolled. even though V1 is image wise uncapped, he's not flatting a set w/ V2 to act behind with the flush draw out there in a MW pot. folks dont get fancy MW on flush board to a lead and a player yet to act behind them. V2 has a bunch of hh and Qx hands and V1 has some PP he'd call and fold as a passive player as well as some hh.

i'm more inclined to try to get money in now which i why i'd rather CIB to V2 and hope V1 spaz's as his play is more likely a big queen willing to let a card peel for cheap and then fold turn when flush hits or make a move when turn bricks - passive players take weird lines of thought like this whereas hitting a set is something he's sat at the table for hours waiting for and will be more likely to jump first chance to prevent someone from drawing out on him.

If V1 folds when you CIB and V2 shoves, he has way more Qx/hh than Q7/Q4 77 or 44 in his shove range here.

Avoiding spots like this is just bad play imo. You scoop stupid equity when V1 folds and you have solid equity if V2 folds.

You don't experience a lower amount of variance at a lower limit.

If you are afraid of the turn, just shove the flop

I'm kinda thinking call check jam blank turns. Check eval on hearts 3s and 8s and check folding Q, maybe k/j turns. Smells like overplayed kq /qj.