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2/5 bluff line check 2/5 bluff line check

07-27-2014 , 09:35 PM
Friday night 2/5 at Parx. Table is a typical mix overall but the arraignment of villains and random lay of cards has led to an exceptional number of hands being folded to me on button.

Hero: $950. Trying to play TAG but probably look rather nitty/passive. Lots of raising in LP and totally whiffing or getting into multiway pots with top pair meh kicker.

Villain: $1150. Very LAG, was way up but has lost $500 or so in the past hour trying to bluff in bad situations or stationing off. Like to check/raise draws on somewhat scary boards. He can give up bluffs when they obviously won't work and has folded to obvious value bets. Definitely aware that my range is much stronger then the other players at table and folding to my bets more after losing several pots.

Hero and villain some history going. I've never seen him before but there have been a lot of hands folded around to me on button, when villain is BB. In 3 hours I've opened all but 1 of the 10 or so hands folded to me. I've had AJo+/ATs+ every single time. The first half a dozen, villain called preflop with ATC but he has folded 2 of the last 4 or 5. Post flop, I keep flopping gut shot straight draws, or facing random low garbage that hits villain's range so I have not c-bet many flops against him. Villain has bet me off air several times but I've won all 3 that got to showdown and taken 1 or 2 on flop or turn. Villain commented that I've c-bet almost every flop when heads up against somebody else, but not him.

Example. I open with ATs, flop is J87r so I check. Turn is low card that gives me a flush draw also so I call villain's bet. River is a T, villain bets, I call and beat his 76.

Folds around
Hero as 43 and raises to $20
SB folds
Villain calls

After a couple of folds I decided to go for essentially a pure steal. I expect to have to barrel here a lot.

Pots $42
Board is T72
Villains checks
Hero checks

I had been playing on barreling a lot of flops but this is fairly useless to me. Hits his range and not mine, plus I've got almost no equity.

Pot is $42
Board is T72A
Villain bets $35
Hero raises to $90
Villain calls $90

Here is where things get interesting. The ace hits my perceived range and gives me a lot more equity in the hand. Villain is betting more then half of turns no matter what he has after I check flop, so his range is super wide. Villain considered folding, but called. At this point I'm afraid villain improved to a flush draw on turn also, in which case hitting could get me killed.

Pot is $222
Board is T72AQ
Villain checks
Hero bets $125

River is a brick for the situation. I think I pretty much have to follow through with bluff as I put a lot of draws in his range on turn and they missed but I have no show down value at all. I go with a pure value sized bluff, something that looks like I'm trying to get a call by weak aces and good pair+draws but just big enough to give him a reason to fold. I'm mostly curious what people thing of the turn raise and the river bluff sizing.
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07-27-2014 , 09:46 PM
nh; wp, imo. I took this same line a couple of times last night. That turn gives you soo much equity, and adding in FE is awesome. Follow up is pretty mandatory, imo. I probably go $150, but I don't know if it makes that much difference in his calling frequency to make up for risking more.
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07-27-2014 , 09:47 PM
Bet flop, turn raise is kinda sketchy bc most of what you're repping is AJ-AK so V has to believe you would actually raise those hands on this pretty dry board vs his wide range. You should also know if you would actually raise those hands. I like sizing the turn raise on the smaller side, I'd bet river bigger though, I think you probably have more air compared to value hands than you believe
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07-27-2014 , 09:52 PM
I'd like the hand a lot better if we cBet the flop.

Then we have a lot more AX combos in our hand that we will often barrel.
Otherwise I think that we need to raise the turn to ~110 or so, and $150 the river.
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07-27-2014 , 10:25 PM
I actually like the line as played... But as an aside, if you've raised 9/10 times it has been folded to you in the button, that doesn't sound very nitty to me
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07-27-2014 , 10:27 PM
Fwiw, when a 'good' villain who is the PFR'r, checks back the flop and raises the turn, IMA need a very good reason not to station him if I have any kind of sdv.

Having said that, I don't hate your line.

I think your river bet needs to be at least $150 tho.

I'd rate this bluff a 6 out of 10.
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07-27-2014 , 10:29 PM
I do hate your AT hand tho, calling that river is pretty bad. If V remembered that hand he can never fold to you in th43s hand... IMO only.
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07-27-2014 , 10:31 PM
I'm definitely betting the flop, you have plenty of turned equity you can continue on plus you have enough fold equity for a 2/3 pot bet to almost be profitable in a vacuum. Given that villain knows you haven't been cbetting much, betting is much better than checking.

I would rather call the turn than raise the turn, since calling looks more like an ace than raising (what hand do we have that checks back flop and calls on a turn ace? Pretty much only ace pairs and turned flush draws), and you have position so the river will be a pretty standard he checks / you bet / he folds spot when you actually have fold equity. I don't expect two barrels from him too often in this spot. If the river is a K or a Q, you also have a pretty good river bluff raise spot.
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07-28-2014 , 08:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvds
Bet flop, turn raise is kinda sketchy bc most of what you're repping is AJ-AK so V has to believe you would actually raise those hands on this pretty dry board vs his wide range. You should also know if you would actually raise those hands. I like sizing the turn raise on the smaller side, I'd bet river bigger though, I think you probably have more air compared to value hands than you believe
I though about betting flop but it seemed unlikely to work against this villain and my hand had almost no equity at that point. That flop hits a lot of his calling range and he isn't folding any pair or draw on the flop, will float air a lot and may check/raise with both value and air. I would have c-bet any flop with a face card or ace or if I had a draw, but I don't see it working enough on this board.

I do agree that calling turn is workable also. I had two reasons for going this way though. First, I would raise him here with a good ace because there are a lot of draws villain can be on. Second villain had been somewhat stationary on river with single pairs, if I flat I think he check/calls a lot of rivers with single pairs if the flush doesn't come in. Raising polarizing my range but I think it gets me more fold equity on river.
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07-28-2014 , 09:17 PM
Need to think about your draw draws. The , the 2, and the 7 are all reasons to cbet. Also it's dryish. Also you're heads up. Also he checked.

River needs to be bigger.
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07-28-2014 , 09:45 PM
I'd bet the flop. I don't think I am ever raising the turn for value, so I wouldn't do it as a bluff. I think call, and possibly bluffing the river is a better line. Especially since raising the turn opens the betting and allows villain to 3 bet, which forces you to fold your equity in the pot.
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07-28-2014 , 10:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia
Need to think about your draw draws. The , the 2, and the 7 are all reasons to cbet. Also it's dryish. Also you're heads up. Also he checked.

River needs to be bigger.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tucco
I'd bet the flop. I don't think I am ever raising the turn for value, so I wouldn't do it as a bluff. I think call, and possibly bluffing the river is a better line. Especially since raising the turn opens the betting and allows villain to 3 bet, which forces you to fold your equity in the pot.
Agree with both of these
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07-28-2014 , 10:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia
Need to think about your draw draws. The , the 2, and the 7 are all reasons to cbet. Also it's dryish. Also you're heads up. Also he checked.

River needs to be bigger.
Hold on... Assuming we cbet the flop... You are barreling a 7 and 2 OTT? IMO those cards are bad cards to bluff (almost the worst), especially when Villain is this loose and could potentially hold those cards himself.
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07-29-2014 , 01:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaNEWPr0fess0r
Hold on... Assuming we cbet the flop... You are barreling a 7 and 2 OTT? IMO those cards are bad cards to bluff (almost the worst), especially when Villain is this loose and could potentially hold those cards himself.
I think they meant that the 7 and 2 on the flop give us some backdoor straight possibilities on the turn that we can barrel (A, 6, 5), along with any diamond which gives us a flush draw.
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07-29-2014 , 09:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadJ
I though about betting flop but it seemed unlikely to work against this villain and my hand had almost no equity at that point. That flop hits a lot of his calling range and he isn't folding any pair or draw on the flop, will float air a lot and may check/raise with both value and air. I would have c-bet any flop with a face card or ace or if I had a draw, but I don't see it working enough on this board.

I do agree that calling turn is workable also. I had two reasons for going this way though. First, I would raise him here with a good ace because there are a lot of draws villain can be on. Second villain had been somewhat stationary on river with single pairs, if I flat I think he check/calls a lot of rivers with single pairs if the flush doesn't come in. Raising polarizing my range but I think it gets me more fold equity on river.
As others have pointed out, this hand has a ton of back door draws. Any card {A, 3-6, diamonds} will pick you up some equity that you can barrel (or check) with. Besides that, you have 4hi, and this flop is comparatively better for you than him, so you should certainly be barreling here with a decent frequency. I would rather x/b with AJo or something.

On turn, you say you would raise w/ good aces (although you made it sound like you cbet them, which I often wouldn't). This is possibly fine (although thin) but keep in mind that you are relatively capped here, so the effects of your "polarization" are limited. If V checks his whole range on the flop, he actually has more nut type hands {sets, 2p} than you. This board is very dry, and bdfds don't make up that much of his range that you really need to worry about having a raising range here. I would generally call you down pretty light here as V bc I think people flat most of their Ax ott, which is basically the only thing you rep (and people love to rep Ax as the pfr)
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07-29-2014 , 09:54 AM
grunch: not a huge fan vs any thinking villain. You say your repping an ace but as per your other hands you will probably call, not raise the turn with most of your aces. Therefore your really kindof polarizing your range to nuts/air.

And you can bet the flop easily repping a ten based on your hand history with him your cbet should get credit. It feels like abit of the case of fps.

What are you trying to get him to fold here?
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07-29-2014 , 11:06 AM
I know I seem to be in the minority here but I do not like it against this villain and your recent history.

The AT hand could be a reason for V to think you are FOS and capable of doing this, thus him calling pretty thin. I think you do rep Ax here pretty well I am just not sure if villain will want to believe you
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07-29-2014 , 02:29 PM
yeah cbet flop... why the baby c/r on the turn - no ace is doing that I think it looks weak.... maybe if you c/r to like 145 150 and bet huge on river...
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07-29-2014 , 05:03 PM
Another reason for just calling the turn is that you will find out more about the strength of villain's hand on the river. Most players are betting their strong value hands on the river, so if villain checks then his range is capped at bluff catchers and air. A river bluff is more likely to work in that spot when compared to trying to bluff raise the turn.
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07-29-2014 , 05:36 PM
We can't check raise in position.

As played I think c betting is correct, this board is far different for he J87 with a flush draw. 10 7 2 rainbow is a great flop to continue. Plus it keeps our range much wider and we know we aren't winning with 4 high ever. Also the river sizing is just too small. You two seem to be the only players who are actually observing anything. Villian will likely give your c bet far more credit if you haven't been doing it vs him often.
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07-29-2014 , 05:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tucco
I think they meant that the 7 and 2 on the flop give us some backdoor straight possibilities on the turn that we can barrel (A, 6, 5), along with any diamond which gives us a flush draw.
Yep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tucco
Another reason for just calling the turn is that you will find out more about the strength of villain's hand on the river. Most players are betting their strong value hands on the river, so if villain checks then his range is capped at bluff catchers and air. A river bluff is more likely to work in that spot when compared to trying to bluff raise the turn.
Yup.
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