Like you said, getting raised Ott is very rare. I'm not just shrugging it off and saying whatever, I felt like I took the best line, and am looking for feedback. I agree that the river isn't a desirable spot if we hit an A or T.

The reason I bet the turn was that I am almost certain that we can get his worse Kx and all JJ combos to fold. At the same time, we have a lot of equity if called. This was the main inflection point, and I'm not really sure what the best option is.

I don't hate x-c, but we also lose initiative. We definitely don't have a strong enough hand to x-c river if it bricks. I'm honestly leading the river though if we x-c turn and hit our flush. Kx, even 2p is just gonna check back so often that we risk a x back if we x.


The thing is, while he can't call with a whole lot, what is he calling a half pot lead with, that he's folding to a pot sized jam? I doubt it changes, at all.

I'll have to actually really break it down, estimate his combos, and then do the old EV equation, and see which is higher +EV .

I bet the turn for the same reason.

I disagree on the river, though. It depends on the player, but many will make crying calls for $250, leaving themselves something behind, but fold to a shove. It's a pretty scary river, and your hand looks a lot like a flush, but again, if he's the type who's calling if he's calling, go for it.

Well what would you put his range as when we get to the river this way? It's presumably very strong.

I don't like the turn bet at these stack depths. Need to be deeper to avoid awkwardness of calling to create a 1:1 spr. If you were both 1300 effective than I can get behind a $50 bet on turn.

His range is mostly likely KT, slow played sets, turned combo draws, QcJc, or like you said maybe a random gutter like 6c4c.

What happened on the river?

Why? You said he sometime plays draws aggressively and sometimes bluffs. He could have a huge range here, and I think he calls a shove only with a flush.

As mentioned, he could have two pair, maybe a set (unlikely based on flop play), flush, KX, missed QJ, etc.

Well, I don't believe for one second someone is folding Kx here, and JJ will be 3bet pre-flop the majority of the time. So this doesn't make much sense to me. Almost his entire folding range is way behind, drawing to only a couple of outs. By betting here, you're just needlessly blowing up the pot against his top pair + hands, and not doing much else. You don't need folding equity, you can't bet for value, I just don’t get it.

I like the bet on the turn, and I would have done the same thing. I'm not sure I would have gone quite as big, but I want money in that pot. We have some fold equity and if he calls with a K, we have a lot of outs. He just happened to raise.

I think shoving turn would have been very interesting, because he really can't continue with much, and if he does, again we have quite a few outs vs. a K. If we had shoved, he's most likely continuing w/ a draw, which is great. If he happens to have a set (unlikely) or KT (also a bit unlikely), so be it.

Not to be a pain, but are you even reading your own stuff and actually thinking about it? You've been asked a couple of times now what you think his range is, but all you say is "he could have a huge range", based on the fact that he "sometimes bluffs". You're even saying "his most obvious raise here is a draw" and that it is "unlikely" that he has a set or two pair. Let me remind you, this guy first calls the flop and then raises a pretty healthy bet on the turn on K32sscTh, while we have ATs, blocking a lot of his most common draws... I think you're putting too much weight on OP having seen him bluff with no equity twice in 50 hours. Twice is not that often and we don't know the exact situations. We do know that in this case hero had already bet pre-flop, flop and turn when this guy started raising. That is valuable information to have.

So it might be a good exercise for you to actually list the combos that make the most sense here, instead of just saying "Ah, just shove, he can have anything here!" (okay, I've permitted myself to slightly exaggerate this last bit, for dramatic purposes, sorry about that). I'm wondering what is more unlikely. That this guy just calls the flop in position with a set and raises the turn, or that he has a lot of obvious draws here?

I listed combos. Are you even reading what you reply to? Once he raises the turn, he can have a draw (QJ?), KT, KX, maybe a set, heck maybe 4s5s. I think a set is unlikely after his check of the flop, but it's possible.

We happened to get raised on the turn. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have bet the turn.

All we have to go by is that V sometime plays draws passively, sometime aggressively and we have seen him bluff. Yes, only twice in 50 hours, but he's capable of it. This is live poker -- not everyone thinks things through or posts on 2+2.

What do you think about getting his worse Kx, and JJ to fold turn though? He normally won't have a set here, and AK is getting 3 bet pre. We really only have to worry about KQ and KT. Though, it would be a distaster if we got a worse FD to fold.

I shoved and he called with 33.

He's only calling the flop with Q J - no other QJ combos.

I didn't expect him to have what he had, though I wasn't shocked. So he could have a draw that he didn't raise the flop with. The only hands I can really think of are KT, and discounted sets + draws, and the only draws he have are spades, and all of those are probably calling a river shove.

He's almost certainly not 3 betting JJ pre, and I doubt he's calling the turn with KJ, K9.

I'm not really sure if he's calling the turn with a FD or not. It'd be a disaster if he did fold a FD though. That information is very important though, to whether or not this bet makes sense. I don't think he'd fold a FD ott, but not certain.

Listen to DooDoo. There is no reason to bet AsTs as a bluff on the turn, it has showdown value and needs very little protection. So what if they have a weak K or JJ? You still have tons of equity to hit 2 pair + or a flush. If you barrel here that just tells me you're going to barrel all your flush draws on the turn and you probably have zero nut flush draws when you check the turn, which is trivially exploitable imo.

What hand will you check call turn with (after betting the flop as well)? Basically if you bet flop then check turn, villain can just bomb it cause you're probably never showing up with anything to call with except maybe a trappy set? Even then KK doesn't make sense betting flop 1/2 pot and TT doesn't make much sense either.

QJ, Kx... Yeah, I'm out, this is no use. Good luck with your soulreading though, you're gonna need it.

People can't fold sets. A set and QJs are about the only hands I think call a river shove.

Your posts are all focused on the fact that we got raised on the turn. He just happened to show up with a set. So results oriented -- good luck with that.

And, yes, I think he could raise the turn with QJs or a K. Heck, he flatted the flop with a set of 3s and then called a shove from a TAG on a flush river -- but you probably think he played it well.

Well done, btw, OP -- definitely got the max

Bart Hanson said turn is super close between a x-c and bet. He said if we bet, we should bet big and that I probably should've gone a little larger than $70. He said he probably x-c, but he doesn't fault a bet. He said he would've played the rest of the hand the same way.

I also like a turn check.

Very, very unlikely he's folding KX, and might even check QQ/JJ. If he bets, obv call.

Betting likely folds his worse hands like pps which floated flop, and ofc we block many draws out of his range. If we do bet, might be a crying bet/jam (?) vs. a call, a spot I would avoid.

KQ KJ JJ 99

V unlikely to bet here but might put you on a missed flush draw with your river shove

by same token the way you played it if you check river with the flush coming in V won't bet unless has a lower flush.
don't see many V's bet a K here on river when flush draw comes in and only 2 bluff's in 50 hrs is not a lot to think he may bluff here

I could go either bet or check/call here. I think it's fine to do both at a mixed frequency. It's an interesting board because we're going to have a huge amount of nutted or semi-nutted combo draws. We're going to want to always see the river with a very big part of our range. It's a little difficult to construct a protected check/call range with the board becoming so draw heavy on the turn as well.

I think bet/call is going to be my preferred line here most of the time, with sometimes a check/call. I don't like bet/jam at all. There are way better bluff candidates we can pick for a bet/jam, and we're repping very narrow for value with a bet/jam.

My main issue with check/call is that it's going to be a pretty capped range we're playing there, which allows villain to just bomb it on the river so often and we're going to end up folding the best hand a lot. With bet/call we can check the river with showdown value hands like this which are protected on a lot of rivers by combo hand draws that got there. In particular if we're going to be leading when we make the nut flush, I like crai when we make a lot of the combo draw straights, particularly non-nutted straights, or low flushes.

he said he hated your sizing. he could get behind like 110, if he thought he could get villian to fold king. but he thought for 70 no villians were folding kings.

and you are just creating a huge pot and he doesn't like the idea of like ripping the a river blank to try to get villian to fold king, now that pot is huge.

i think if we think villian is really wide on the turn that we are ahead its good to bet small for value. if we think villian is really strong on turn has like k-9 + then we should check and play the river.

If you wanna play this game, I don't remember him using the words "I hate that sizing."

As I mentioned in the quoted text, he said he'd go a little larger.

[QUOTE=sixsevenoff;55943327 As I mentioned in the quoted text, he said he'd go a little larger.[/QUOTE]

So you're saying your boy agrees that this is an overspot OTT?! Interesting..

RIO essential ($25/mo normally) is free rn, or at least it was last week. (https://www.runitonce.com/) I imagine you don't care for my specific recs so I would just look around the site and watch some of the more popular videos, specifically the more theoretically oriented ones.

My guess is you'll be surprised at the quality of content in comparison to Bart Hanson's which is extremely repetitive. It's good but at a certain point plateaus imo and hard to gain too much out of. fwiw I've watched nearly all of his hand review videos on his YT channel, even the ones from a few years ago, and some of his content on the site as well.

Yes, RIO content is created for online play but I'm pretty sure the crushers in the 2/5, 5/10(?) where you play have a strong theoretical background even if it seems as if they don't.

I'm very happy with CLP and have hundreds of hours of content to go through. Thanks for the suggestion though. I'll probably take a glance.

anytime