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2/5 Anyone ever use this line in a 3 way pot? 2/5 Anyone ever use this line in a 3 way pot?

08-20-2018 , 02:27 PM
I folded pre this hand but was completely stunned by one of the lines here and would never have used it. Now I'm curious if I should be mixing it in on occasion, not for GTO but for exploitative reasons.

Lots of history again, sorry for the long post but I'll try to be short. Table has transitioned from tight when it got a LAG in seat 6 that opened it up for everyone. Then about an hour later we got a huge fish in seat 1 that the whole table was adjusting to. Seat 6 was a MA bald guy who seemed to have a ego issue challenging the table to open up and commenting frequently about how soft it was. He had been playing lots of hands calling lots of raises stealing lots of pots from any position etc but did attempt to apply some logic and find folds. He wasn't a good LAG yet but he was dangerous. Seat 1 appeared to be a MA street hustler who didn't have much experience playing in casinos but I got the feeling he played home games. He sat with $260 in a full rack, 1 stack of red and 4 stacks of blue $2 chips (at a 2/5 game...). His girlfriend held his "backup rack" of $500 in all red. Seat one proceeded to play every hand call every raise and bluff off his $260 in about 20 mins. He then put the $500 rack on the table and sent his girlfriend to get another $500 "backup rack". That one lasted about 30 mins. Third rack was doing a bit better but the 4th backup was there just in case. No one cared about seat 6 anymore and everyone was trying to isolate against seat 1.

OTTH:
V2 ($2k+): Limps UTG, young solid TAG who isn't nitty. Hasn't been caught out of line but has said some things to suggest he's also taking shots light and I believed him.
Folds to V1 in MP who opens for $55, the open price had increased from $25 to $30-$50 of late and $50+ on straddle hands wasn't unheard of. V1 is young hoodie wearing player and new to the table, no reads. He's been here just long enough to maybe notice the table dynamic 1 or two orbits. He is short stacked with ~$195 behind.
Folds to Hero in CO who looks down at TT (didn't see the suits). Hero pauses with what appears to be genuine concern before flatting, most likely because both Seat 1 (who you always want in the pot) and V2 were behind (~$1.5k)
Folds back around to V2 who flats.

Flop: (~$165 after rake) 8 5 3
(guessing on suits I wasn't in the hand but I think there was a flush draw)
V2 checks, V1 jams the $195, Hero?

How do we range each V here?
2/5 Anyone ever use this line in a 3 way pot? Quote
08-20-2018 , 09:18 PM
It's kind of unlikely for a "solid TAG" to have any hand here, so it's hard to say, but I'm going to assume V2 has a big pair. If he limped a small pair he should have folded it preflop to this action. If he limped some speculative hand like 89s or something he should also have mucked that once the fish failed to get involved. The only thing that makes sense is that he was trapping with AA or KK and opted to flat pre because the limp/rr is too obviously strong and he wanted to let V1 hang himself postflop instead. V1 could have anything, but probably isn't particularly strong or he'd have tried a small bet instead of jamming.

That said, TT is a pretty difficult fold here because you should be well ahead of V1's range. At the table it's unlikely I'd be confident enough in my read on V2 to consider folding. It's a very narrow range to put him on and most of the time it's more likely that I'm just wrong in thinking he's a solid TAG.

If I'm correct by the way, then I think the play is taking too big a risk in allowing you to see a flop, but it does work out when you're as strong as TT.
2/5 Anyone ever use this line in a 3 way pot? Quote
08-21-2018 , 08:13 AM
V1 is sorta hard to pin down because you don't have any positive read yet. As the preflop raiser and with a SPR just over 1 he is jamming anything he wants to play. That includes any over pairs (TT+ most likely), diamond draws (AJs+), sometimes with any AK and a few bluffs. How often he bluffs depends on the player and what other hands he may have depends on how wide he is opening. It shouldn't actually include much given the big preflop raises and his small stack but I would't be surprised to see a fair bit more.

V2's range depends a bit on how big hero's stack is. If hero is not deep then V2 should fold everything except a few big pairs that he limped hoping for a limp/raise. V1 just doesn't have enough money to play anything else. Possibly AKs but obviously everything except AdKd folds when V1 jams. If hero is deeper then V2 can limp/call a bit wider with middle/low pairs and make the occasional call with suited connectors hoping to lay a trap for hero. If V2 is doing that very often then he isn't TAG but occasionally it's OK if both V2 and hero are deep.
2/5 Anyone ever use this line in a 3 way pot? Quote
08-21-2018 , 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
If I'm correct by the way, then I think the play is taking too big a risk in allowing you to see a flop, but it does work out when you're as strong as TT.
Are you referring to V2's possible action here as the play?
2/5 Anyone ever use this line in a 3 way pot? Quote
08-21-2018 , 11:20 AM
Thanks for feedback. I'll try to hold for one or two more before posting results which I thought were the interesting part.
2/5 Anyone ever use this line in a 3 way pot? Quote
08-21-2018 , 11:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by c0rnBr34d
Are you referring to V2's possible action here as the play?
Yeah. Like if he did conceal strength, that's dangerous when his plan is to check to the raiser and then not fold whatever you do, basically. I dunno, maybe it's OK, but it's high variance for sure this deep.
2/5 Anyone ever use this line in a 3 way pot? Quote
08-21-2018 , 11:53 AM
I guess maybe v2 was gonna limp reraise but then he’s changed his mind and is trying to trap you knowing shorty is probably jamming the flop. I think that’s what Chris v is referring to. Honestly I would discount that but I would like to be there to have more reads to know for sure. Players I describe as solid tags usually don’t l/rr they are just opening all their premiums in ep. was seat 1 calling or raising a lot pre? If the latter I can see v2 going for l/Rr but if the former I think his range is more like suited connectors and pocket pairs looking to flop big and stack hero because you are 300 bbs deep
2/5 Anyone ever use this line in a 3 way pot? Quote
08-21-2018 , 12:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by megamen70
I guess maybe v2 was gonna limp reraise but then he’s changed his mind and is trying to trap you knowing shorty is probably jamming the flop. I think that’s what Chris v is referring to. Honestly I would discount that but I would like to be there to have more reads to know for sure. Players I describe as solid tags usually don’t l/rr they are just opening all their premiums in ep. was seat 1 calling or raising a lot pre? If the latter I can see v2 going for l/Rr but if the former I think his range is more like suited connectors and pocket pairs looking to flop big and stack hero because you are 300 bbs deep
This is an interesting point. Seat 1 was not raising a lot pre, his action was mostly post but he was calling a ton pre and post. The table reaction was for pretty much everyone else to raise more for value and to try to isolate both pre and post. So I could see V2 go either way on this, raising to target seat 1 or l/rr to target the rest of the table from UTG.
2/5 Anyone ever use this line in a 3 way pot? Quote
08-21-2018 , 02:14 PM
I guess 3 will have to do.

Spoiler:
Only Chris chimed in on the portion that Hero likely has to call without significant reads. Obviously the point here is V2s limp calling range UTG and what that does to Hero's action since they are effectively $1.5k deep. Hero was making ridiculous hero calls all night (once with A high and it was good against the seat 6 LAG) which is perhaps why I made him the Hero in this hand but somehow he found a fold here. As many have sniffed out V2 called V1s flop shove with QQ and scooped against V1s JJ. There's a zero percent chance I limp call QQ pre here after a stack that large flats with action behind. Maybe AA given the action, maybe even KK, but I was really shocked to see QQ here. I assume he was playing against the whole field with a limp re-raise strat and given the unknown V1 raise / amount and Seat 1 fold he decided not to pull the trigger to extract more value from Hero? What are your thoughts on this line with QQ specifically? What about KK, AA? Everyone often likes to say someone's range is capped when they make a move like this but any time a Seat 1 is behind are ranges ever really capped?
2/5 Anyone ever use this line in a 3 way pot? Quote
08-21-2018 , 11:25 PM
Why not make it $150 Pre?
2/5 Anyone ever use this line in a 3 way pot? Quote
08-22-2018 , 04:01 AM
I regret reading this post.

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2/5 Anyone ever use this line in a 3 way pot? Quote
08-22-2018 , 11:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle
Why not make it $150 Pre?
Who? Hero or V2?
2/5 Anyone ever use this line in a 3 way pot? Quote
08-22-2018 , 11:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by monikrazy
I regret reading this post.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
Well after wasting all that time it would be nice to at least provide an opinion. Do you think limp calling a 11x open OOP in a 3 way pot against a short stack and V with 300 BB with QQ is a tool everyone should have on occasion or is it generally spew that worked out in this case?
2/5 Anyone ever use this line in a 3 way pot? Quote
08-22-2018 , 12:28 PM
With QQ? Never intentionally taking this line. I might take it with AA/KK and I might take it with worse hands but QQ-TT fall into that range that are likely best but really don't want to see a flop multiway.

Given the table description I might make the first limp in V2's situation with QQ-TT but that is to limp/raise and isolate against on of the fish or set mine if it goes many ways. After V1 makes the big opening raise and gets a call I would reraise in V2's position and try to get heads up preflop. The situation won't come up enough to worry about balance.
2/5 Anyone ever use this line in a 3 way pot? Quote
08-22-2018 , 12:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadJ
With QQ? Never intentionally taking this line. I might take it with AA/KK and I might take it with worse hands but QQ-TT fall into that range that are likely best but really don't want to see a flop multiway.

Given the table description I might make the first limp in V2's situation with QQ-TT but that is to limp/raise and isolate against on of the fish or set mine if it goes many ways. After V1 makes the big opening raise and gets a call I would reraise in V2's position and try to get heads up preflop. The situation won't come up enough to worry about balance.
These are pretty much my thoughts exactly. But the fact that I was so caught off guard by V2s holding made me wonder if this is somehow acceptable or some sort of exploit. I had him on AA, KK, AK, I guess he could be set mining against Hero since they are deep enough but I thought QQ was definitively 3! there.
2/5 Anyone ever use this line in a 3 way pot? Quote

      
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