Villain ($1200): 30ish grinder who is a pro. Seems mostly TAG so far. Haven't seen him do anything out of line in 45 minutes. Plays the 2/5 deep stack game occasionally. Might be tilted because K8o just sucked out on the river on him in a medium sized pot and he groaned about it.

Hero (covers): Young kid, probably LAG image. Haven't shown down anything weird but opened several times in my 45 minutes or so at the table. 3bet fish to my right once and he folded pre.

THE HAND
2 folds, I open AsKc to $25, folds, Villain makes it $75 in HJ, I 4bet to $175 and he flats.

Flop ($350)
AdJs9s
I bet $225, he calls.

Turn ($800)
5o
I shove

And he snapped you off with JJ or 99?


Seems like a spot where you are either way ahead or way behind.

Do you advocate a turn check, then? I thought a shove was the best sizing on the turn because any real bet obviously commits me, and a shove looks "bluffiest".

What are you trying to get called by? AQ seems like the only hand.

AQ or random Ax he got sticky with pre, price out any draws, maybe fold out a chop.

I don't rep much, don't know if he thinks I'll 4bet AK, so I figured a big shove might invoke a hero call from Ax.

What's a better line in this spot?

I don't like the line because you shouldn't really ever have air here. I think c/c flop will be much better for your overall 4betting range on this board texture against this player.

I also think folding pre is probably best because it's EP vs HJ which means his 3betting range is pretty much all value and AK isn't doing well against a 3betting value range with these positions.

4bet bigger ... c/c flop..

or fold pre.. game time decision for me

Hideous. In the first place, your image isn't LAG. Opening several times in 45 minutes isn't unusual. "Haven't shown down anything weird": that's not LAG either." 3bet fish to my right once and he folded pre": that's also standard. I'd say your image is neutral here.

"Might be tilted because K8o just sucked out on the river on him in a medium sized pot and he groaned about it". Wishful thinking. A TAG pro isn't going tilt just because some idiot sucked out with a hand he had no business playing. If he groaned about losing a mid-sized pot, that's Hollywooding.

A TAG, pro grinder isn't anyone I'd want to 4-bet with a Big Slick-off. When that $75 goes to the center, the Big Slick goes into the muck. You're playing deep here, you're playing OOP, and you don't want to risk a big chunk of that stack on one-pair type hands, and that's exactly what you got on a very dangerous flop. What hands would you expect a TAG pro to be calling a $100 raise pre? I hope it turned out well for you, but playing like that is a good way to blow off a nice sized stack.

Folding AK to a 3 bet seems pretty weak.

call the 3b pre, as played c/c flop, as played c/c turn is probably fine

I think calling ak here pre is better than 4betting a tag 200bb deep. If you feel you must 4bet this, I think bet sizing should be 225ish. Given how hand unfolded his range is jj+ ak.

I think it is extreme wishful thinking that a TAG is going to call a 4 bet in this situation pf with a range that doesn't crush you. Even the portions that you beat on the flop are folding to a bet. Probably one of the best examples of RIO betting I've seen in a long time.

I like a call to the 3 bet pf and an auto-check on the flop. With AK, I'm not looking to narrow the villain's 3bet range at all. I don't mind a fold either.

Im not a big fan of calling the 3bet oop. For blockers Ak is a good hand to have in a 4bet range vs a good tag who is capable of folding. 4bet this hand and hope to get a fold.

Once he calls, i agree with most posters, this is a check/call spot

Yea, seriously can't even think of a better hand to 4b with. If you're folding this pre at a high enough frequency you need to either work on your game or find a better one.

it doesnt matter if this is the best hand to 4b with if we arent going to 4b at all in this spot

In general this is a fold pre and a check on the flop for reasons already outlined by daniel9861. Villain would have to be super tilty to call pre with a weaker Ace in this spot. Villain would need to have a blown gasket to call more than one street with a weaker Ace here. Your hand is pretty much face up as AK+

Strictly looking at this from a strategic investment standpoint, if this is a typical 2/5 game with a few good players and a bunch of fish, why would we be trying to bloat a pot OOP deep with Ace high vs one of the best players on the table? We are not going to make money playing bloated pots OOP vs villains that are better than us. This play simply makes no logical sense and justifying it by "I haz AK, I must raise" is not going to cut it.

Turn check seems clearly in better in retrospect.

I'm not yet convinced on checking the flop though. If I check this flop after 4betting pre, isn't it very suspicious to a competent player? Doesn't betting look weaker?

Even if it's true my 4bet only gets called by a range that crushes me, that doesn't mean 4betting isn't correct. We take down an easy $75 pre many times when flatting would mean we just have to c/f any whiffed flop.

Pre hinges on what a TAG's range for 3betting a young kid who opened 5 times in 45 minutes is...I 4bet because I assumed it was somewhat wide, plus blockers.

Why would we not have a 4betting range ~250 bbs deep against someone with the slightest clue of what's going on?

The main point you're forgetting here is that your vill started this hand sitting behind 240BB. That's what this hand can cost you. It's not easy accumulating 240BBs in one session. OK, you 4-bet pop for $100 more to win $75. Yes, it'll work often enough to make it profitable. This time, that didn't happen. He called. He's in position, he's a competent pro or semi-pro TAG, and likely one of the best players at the table. This is who you're locking horns with. You didn't flop gin here, but you did catch just enough to get yourself into MAJOR trouble. That's what happened: that bareassed pair of aces sucked you right into the vortex.

"Pre hinges on what a TAG's range for 3betting a young kid who opened 5 times in 45 minutes it...I 4bet because I assumed it was somewhat wide, plus blockers" You're still putting way too much stock into this. Opening five times in 45 minutes could mean LAG-gy player. It could also mean a run of good cards. Your pro player knows this, and that this isn't enough of a hand sample to come to any solid conclusions.

At this stage of the game, none of that matters. What's important is stack preservation during deep stack combat. If you don't preserve your stack, you won't have one. since you failed to bink gin on the flop, you want to get away from this as cheaply as possible.

Granted, sometimes it's not possible to avoid deep stack combat with TPTK kinds of hands: ( https (COLON SLASH SLASH) www (DOT) youtube (DOT) com/watch?v=D9UcUHjoZz8 ) This wasn't one of those times.

No because your 4betting range has no air in it. If it was CO vs BTN or BB vs BTN then there might be some air and a cbet makes sense. In this case your 4betting range is pretty much only AA/KK/AK/QQ and you'll be pretty easy to play against when you're cbetting AA/AK and checking KK/QQ on this board.

I still prefer folding to the 3bet because typical 3bet ranges are nitty, especially with these positions, and we're forced to play fit or fold on missed flops and there's a ton of RIO on turns and rivers when we do hit since our opponent can play turns and rivers perfectly in position knowing almost exactly where we're at when we c/c an A or K high flop. Although I think 4betting as a bluff is better than calling if he 5bets AA/KK and flats QQ/JJ/AK.

Pre is okay, flat is fine too, depends. Sizing is good. Don't do more, that's silly. As played I check flop like half the time. Turn I check probably 75% of the time or something. If I check 1 street, I probably check the next street about half the time also.

To be honest what line to take is quite read dependent. Do they have draws in their preflop range in this spot? Will they stab? Will they "protect" their hands and bet?

If they don't bet much in this spot with those hands, it's probably best to just bet flop jam turn to protect your hand since we're basically never folding.

I don't know why people think villain's flatting range at this depth will "crush" us. People don't 3bet AJ much, if anything their range is like QQ KK AK, and we're actually doing pretty well against that on the flop, and then they have all the other Axs. If their range is really that tight, then we probably should 4bet smaller sizing, not bigger.