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/ AA 3b pot 240bb deep facing turn raise with SPR <1 / AA 3b pot 240bb deep facing turn raise with SPR <1

12-10-2011 , 12:47 PM
Table is deep $2/5 game.

I just got sucked out on in a big pot where I 3b light and a crazy loose korean called me OOP with Q3ss and hit a flush on the river. I am perceived to be on tilt. I play TAG, but V1 views me as a nut peddler, and V2 has no concept of image in his decision making. Hero is sitting with $1200

V1 is an aggro fish to my right who views me as a nit. He overvalues TP a bit too much, calls rags PF, calls middle/bottom pair on the flop. He has c/r'ed the turn with middle pair and a gutshot. He has some concept of ranging, Often verbally puts me on hands like QQ+AK+ when I 3b, and cont bet/raise. V1 is sitting with $4000+

V2 is also an aggro fish. He has the same leaks as V1, but has no concept of ranging. He also values TP more, and does not think about his kicker. He does not understand that a 3b preflop represents AK/JJ+. He gets attached to middle/top pair easily, and stacks off super light. V2 is sitting with ~$1800. V2 has donated about $2000 to the table in an hour and everyone has won a big pot from him other than me, who funded his spewing in the first place.

Table dynamics; V2 opens 50% of pots, and V1 calls 75% of his opens. I have 3bet 3 times in the past 2 hours in this situation.

V2 opens for $25, V1 calls, Hero is on the CO with AA and loves his life. Hero raises to $100, V2 calls, V1 calls.

Flop ($300); Jd 5s 2c

V2 bets $170, V1 tank calls, hero raises to $400 intending to ship any turn, V2 calls, V1 calls.

Turn ($1500); 5h

V2 quickly bets $300, V1 SNAP raises to $2500 (does not think for more than 1 second), Hero has $700 left and lol's. Hero?

Can I ever fold here? Can this be played any other way? Should I just jam the flop? Should I make it something stupid like $200 preflop? Does positive variance exist?
/ AA 3b pot 240bb deep facing turn raise with SPR <1 Quote
12-10-2011 , 01:13 PM
You can never fold here, but... puke.

I think your PF is great, but your raise OTF is far too small. There is $640 in the pot when it gets to you. After your call, it's $710. You only raise by $230. I know it's a dry board, but that's just begging for trouble.

You have 2 choices. You can make the raise to get at least one V in on the installment plan, in which case, make it at least $500 here and maybe 600. If you get a caller you'll have less than a 1/2 pot left, so it will be hard for either V to fold either piece.

Or you can bomb it with a shove, since any raise commits you anyway, and be happy with the $640 pot, but even with V's drooly tendencies, I think you're only getting called by better.
/ AA 3b pot 240bb deep facing turn raise with SPR <1 Quote
12-10-2011 , 01:33 PM
Meh...uncap cards, lift with left hand( for practice) and toss your one pair into the muck. Then get up from the table so you're not on fire tilt the 1/5 times they both showdown Jx....I mean, that's what they're reppin. Off chance V2 has KK/QQ. Board is way too dry to assume we are way ahead I think
/ AA 3b pot 240bb deep facing turn raise with SPR <1 Quote
12-10-2011 , 01:36 PM
My thinking on the small raise was; I don't want to raise out 2x and 5x hands. If I put in a proper raise (say $600+) either villain is going to fold 2x and 5x which makes up 50-66% of each range. Is this correct thinking? Or are the odds I'm giving too favorable?

I actually thought I played it quite well, but maybe raising to $600 is better. I don't think V1 even realizes my stack size.
/ AA 3b pot 240bb deep facing turn raise with SPR <1 Quote
12-10-2011 , 01:54 PM
Quote:
I don't think V1 even realizes my stack size.
an even better reason to overcharge him OTF, IMO.
/ AA 3b pot 240bb deep facing turn raise with SPR <1 Quote
12-10-2011 , 02:07 PM
snap, that 5 is a great card for you.
/ AA 3b pot 240bb deep facing turn raise with SPR <1 Quote
12-10-2011 , 02:18 PM
^ I believe I understand your thinking here, but would you be so kind as to clarify why you believe the 5 to be a good card?

I think this is a good "teachable moment."
/ AA 3b pot 240bb deep facing turn raise with SPR <1 Quote
12-10-2011 , 02:19 PM
It cuts down the possibility of an opponent having a set/wack two pair. It greatly increases our equity versus Jx.
/ AA 3b pot 240bb deep facing turn raise with SPR <1 Quote
12-10-2011 , 02:32 PM
Hmm, yes pretty much what I was thinking. To elucidate:
a) even the small raise OTF was unlikely to have been called by bare 5s, and this 5 reduces the combos with 5s that were possible OTF. Yes, it kills us for the times they DO have a 5, but there are many fewer combos possible.

b) Jx catching (or already having, in the unlikely case J2) 2-pair on us is no longer a concern, since we have a better 2-pair.
/ AA 3b pot 240bb deep facing turn raise with SPR <1 Quote
12-10-2011 , 02:48 PM
Preflop: fine imo
Flop: make it like $600 (i know this raise commits u so y not shove, but these opponents are much more likely to call $600 than a shove). I dont think your $400 raise was too bad given stack sizes tho.
Turn: sigh call. u r getting like 3.5:1 and u r good more than enough to call here. If u had a bigger stack it would be a tougher spot.
/ AA 3b pot 240bb deep facing turn raise with SPR <1 Quote
12-10-2011 , 06:11 PM
No reason to raise flop here at all on this super dry board. If these are aggro fish, let them keep doing the betting. With an SPR of 3 getting stacks in is not an issue, and this is WA/WB so you don't need to protect. So just flat flop.

OTT, if your read is right then calling is the only choice. They could be going wild with QQ/AJ. You already committed yourself on the flop, so now the die is cast. If you are going to fold top overpair in a 3 bet pot with an SPR of 3 on a dry board you won't be doing too well IMO...
/ AA 3b pot 240bb deep facing turn raise with SPR <1 Quote
12-10-2011 , 06:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Setsy
No reason to raise flop here at all on this super dry board. If these are aggro fish, let them keep doing the betting. With an SPR of 3 getting stacks in is not an issue, and this is WA/WB so you don't need to protect. So just flat flop.

OTT, if your read is right then calling is the only choice. They could be going wild with QQ/AJ. You already committed yourself on the flop, so now the die is cast. If you are going to fold top overpair in a 3 bet pot with an SPR of 3 on a dry board you won't be doing too well IMO...
I'm curious, why dont u like a raise with a caller behind... I think its a great spot to set up a turn shove, but would go bigger.
/ AA 3b pot 240bb deep facing turn raise with SPR <1 Quote
12-10-2011 , 09:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sommerset
I'm curious, why dont u like a raise with a caller behind... I think its a great spot to set up a turn shove, but would go bigger.
Lets assume OP's read that villains are aggro fish is correct.

1. What is the flaw in their game, and what's the best way to take advantage of it?
2. What is the first bettor's flop betting range?
3. How does their betting turn range if we flat flop compare to their continuing range against our flop raise?
4. What is the equity of their strongest possible draws with 1 card to come (to the turn)?
5. Do we need to raise at any point in the hand to get stacks in by the river?
/ AA 3b pot 240bb deep facing turn raise with SPR <1 Quote
12-10-2011 , 10:06 PM
Would flat on the flop board is super dry and you are WA/WB. As played based on image of all 3 players I would call turn and hope to see Jx from V1
/ AA 3b pot 240bb deep facing turn raise with SPR <1 Quote
12-10-2011 , 11:29 PM
If you are raising the flop,you are raisng in order to get it in, so...
Folding is not an option.
Expect to get shown a 75 type hand a certain amount of the time.
Overall, getting it in is obv profitable vs thier ranges, as they are playing any top pair hands exactly like this; if they both have a J, you are in great shape.
/ AA 3b pot 240bb deep facing turn raise with SPR <1 Quote
12-10-2011 , 11:34 PM
If you are raising the flop,you are raisng in order to get it in, so...
Folding is not an option.
Expect to get shown a 75 type hand a certain amount of the time. In this case, thier call was unprofitable, so you can't hate paying it off.
Overall, getting it in is obv profitable, as they are playing any top pair hands exactly like this; if they both have a J, you are in great shape.
/ AA 3b pot 240bb deep facing turn raise with SPR <1 Quote
12-11-2011 , 01:19 AM
folding is not conceivable
/ AA 3b pot 240bb deep facing turn raise with SPR <1 Quote
12-11-2011 , 04:18 AM
given your 3betting image, make it $150 pre and life is easier. as played, i think folding is a reasonable option. the 5 counterfeits one two pair hand, J2 - this is not a reasonable hand for even a fish to call a 3b with.

since you've seen him donate to everybody at the table, you need to use your reads from previous showdowns. did he raise all in on the turn with TP against 2other players the previous hands? i am leaning more towards a fold

Last edited by realestate; 12-11-2011 at 04:24 AM.
/ AA 3b pot 240bb deep facing turn raise with SPR <1 Quote

      
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