Hero (1125) - Late 20s/early 30s looking white dude. I look like a maniac but have not played to my image much tonight. I've squeezed a few of V2's 3x opens + coldcallers because his range is absurd and he doesn't play back at me when I do so. Won a couple medium sized pots with no showdown, including a hand where I raised a V3 flop bet on a K72r board and followed up with a big turn bet. V3 folded AKo in that spot, believing I had a set, and most seemed to think it was a good fold. So I'm getting respect for some reason. Besides squeezing V2 a ton in our 2 or 3 sessions together, I don't think he's seen my dark side postflop. Mostly just shown down the goods.

V1 ($800) - Old asian OMC. Telegraphs hand strength based on bet sizing. Cbets like 100% of boards, but doesn't PFR much.

V2 (covers) - The Slinger. Old white guy. Mostly jovial between hands, but is pretty damn intense during hands. Body language is all over the place so I pretty much ignore it (I suck at that stuff anyway). Plays like 80/50, and 3xs his entire range PF. Doesn't 3bet PF similarly wide from what I've seen. Seems to throw varying amounts of black chips into any postflop pot approaching or exceeding $100 with much abandon and little reason. As such, he doesn't get to showdown often. I've seen him turn KsTs into a bluff on a KcQcQdJc board (not as the aggressor) and follow up by bombing the river. I've seen him flat a 3bet with KK IP and then bet all three streets when checked to on a AQTQ5 board. I've seen him 3x AA PF, cbet a J high board, get called in two spots, then pot a Jr turn, get called twice AGAIN, and pot the river. I have never seen him backraise a street before, but that's usually because he's the one doing the raising to begin with. Almost always tops off to cover the biggest stack, as is customary of The Slinger.

V3 ($700) - Middle aged black guy. Doesn't do much folding pre, especially to V2. Plays pretty well postflop in that he knows when to bet, when to call, and when to fold for the most part.

2/5NL - 9handed

V1 raises 15 UTG+1, V2 calls HJ, V3 calls BTN, Hero calls A2 in SB, BB calls.

Flop ($70) : A 8 2
Hero checks, BB checks, V1 bets 30, V2 calls, V3 calls, Hero raises to 130, V1 folds, V2 raises to 325, V3 folds, Hero calls.

Turn ($780) : J
Villain bets 400, Hero...


The Slinger acts very quickly on all streets when it's his turn. Hero takes quite a while facing the backraise and turn bet because he is weak like baby in eyes of The Slinger.

Thoughts are welcome on all streets.

Any reads on how v plays monsters?

Probably getting it in here. V hasn't shown capability to give up after showing aggression - even when bluffing. This, coupled with the fact that v isn't flatting many monsters with 2 to act behind on this flop.

There was one pot I recall where he limped the button with some kind of offsuit ragged garbage. Flopped two pair, checked it. Turned a boat, bet like 25 into 25. Bet 35 into 75 on river when flush came in and got looked up by the case trips card. So there's definitely some variation in his play with made hands, but that was in a silly small pot. Haven't seen him showdown a real monster in a big pot in like 10 hours with the guy.

I like leading the flop for 40

Yeah, you need to start getting money in early here. You don't want this checked around.

I think calling V's rr and re-evaluating on the turn is the best play.

Sent from my LG-MS690 using 2+2 Forums

I lead this flop for like 2/3 pot then 3bet if raised. Leading the flop makes your decisions easier post flop and extracts the most value in a multiway pot.

On the turn, given the action, I fold. I think it is likely that you are behind.

I'm usually leading flop 50-60. Combination of my current image, relative position, and PFR's cbet freq. made it closer to a c/r IMO.

I don't think I can find a fold after reading the HH's villain played. He's litterally just mashing buttons IRL.

His range likely has to include:
AX (all combinations)
A8
A2
34
45
35
82
AKx
AA, 88, 22

And possibly a few other hands.

Board: Ah 2c 8c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 45.860% 39.37% 06.49% 14423 2375.50 { Ad2d }
Hand 1: 54.140% 47.65% 06.49% 17456 2375.50 { AA, 88, 22, AcKc, AcQc, AcJc, AcTc, Ac9c, Ah8h, As8s, Ac7c, Ac6c, Ac5c, Ac4c, Ac3c, As2s, 82s, 5c4c, 5c3c, 4c3c, AcKd, AcKh, AcKs, A8o, A2o, 82o }

I think AA is less likely given the action, but since there's only 1 combo of it out there, that's mostly irrelevant.

Thoughts?

This game sounds really good. Weirdish spot but I just don't fold. I think c/r is fine, though leading out is okay too. It depends on cbet/stab frequency of players in the pot. Considering they aren't too aggro and will fold tptk and such to you, I think leading is good but I think it's close enough it's not a huge deal.

Never folding, I am not opposed to re raising the flop back versus this guy.

However I let him value own himself and ch call the turn.

Aren't these two lines contradictory?

I really like c/c'ing the turn against this villain due to his tendencies, btw.

against the villain described in the OP, why on earth are we entertaining ANY thoughts of betting into him?

For the love of good, lets give the man all the rope in the world that he wants and let him hang himself.

I like the c/r on the flop simply because there is a flush draw on the board and our c/r can be seen as a flush draw. So the flop c/r is fine, I expect that to get called by both flush draws and all Ax hands and in the case of Slinger V, he can even have air or pockets that he calls with.

After our awesome semi-bluff flush draw c/r on flop, I always check this turn to this villain ESPECIALLY after he re-raised us on the flop. So I check, hand villain a length of rope and say, "enjoy making yourself a noose".

So turn and river is easy c/c regardless of what hits. Again, this is all based on villain description. V is a Slinger so let him sling

V1 cbets nearly all the time as said in the OP. Donking doesn't make sense. C/r is good obvs and flatting the cold 3b is best purely because we've seen him monkey barrel KK on an Axx board. OTT without the info of him slinging 3 streets I'd go with check/shoving turn because we're 70% pot committed anyways (but in this instance we're safe to check/call the river for max value because we're certain he's gonna bet on this similarish board as he did before)?

Anyone else think this is a fold pre?

+1

Position
Position
Position

Fold > 3bet > Call

Folding may be worth consideration, but 3betting ace rag suited when we can likely go off 5ways with a really high SPR seems suboptimal.

You're doing it to iso the fish, not to get it 5 ways. If it's a table where you probably will get it 5 ways, then folding is optimal (IMO folding is optimal regardless). Calling is by far the worst option. Playing a hand like this OOP, in a multi-way pot, without initiative is asking for trouble.

I meant having it go 5 ways when we flat seems like a pretty good result. Asian OMC isn't about folding to 3bets when he opens (which is pretty rare), and V2/V3 could easily chain in behind him.

FYP

3!'ing would be criminal

You're underestimating the value of position if you think you want to play this 5 ways out of the SB. This hand exemplifies one of many difficult situations that will become of playing this the way you did.

I once read in a high stakes 2+2 thread (might have been phil galfond's well) that said something along the lines of "no matter how much you know about this game, you still don't have a full understanding of the value of position". Think about that every time you have the urge to flat OOP and you'll see a significant spike in your winrate

I hope you mean criminal in the sense that we would be stealing $50 most of the time.

I'm not saying 3! is optimal, I'm just saying it's far better than calling. Calling is absurdly bad and it's a major leak

The difficulty of this hand stems from villain's line and tendency to sling the black chips, not position. Had I been on the BTN and raised the cbet and then got backraised, it would be equally as painful on the flop and this turn.

I'm going to make some small mistakes due to position when I flop TPNK, but outside of that, AXs is one of the easier hand types to play from the blinds in a really MW pot.

If we were at 50bb, or even 80bb and looking at heads up or 3-way action , then hell ya, I could get behind a preflop fold.

But we are getting 4:1 on a call vs 3 villains and we are 225bb deep vs a 3bb raise.

We flop a flush a little less than 2% of the time.
We flop a flush draw around 10.5% of the time
We flop two pair 2% of the time

in terms of overall odds, we need around 45:1 in both direct and implied odds to make our flat here profitable.

We are getting 4:1 in direct odds and around 60:1 x 3 villains in implied odds which would equal a total of 180:1. Obviously if we hit we don't get paid off 100% of the time, but even allowing for 25% of the time we make out like a bandit at around 45:1 in implied odds applying the 25% to the 180:1...

But if you include post flop ability (even though we are out of position) and this becomes even more profitable.

In conclusion, folding a nut drawing hand preflop for a 3bb raise just because we are in the small blind in a multiway pot when we are 225bb deep and the rest of the field is over 150bb+ deep is insanely nitty.

Preflop is an easy call. Yes we our OOP but we can more than make that up with the implied odds.

I don't see how 3-betting preflop is preferable to calling.

We are too deep and there is not enough dead money to try to go for a steal. Given our depth (200bb+) and the fact we have a nutted drawing hand, I want to keep my implied odds as high as possible so I can draw post flop. If we were in position I could get behind a 3-bet preflop, but since we are OOP, I think optimal line here preflop is just a passive line. We have a nutted drawing hand and incredible odds, so lets take the draw unless the flop changes things.

Also taking into account our villain type. We want to 3-bet our value hands against this villain and then if villain tries to take the initiative post flop we let him value own himself. 3-betting a nutted drawing hand vs "The Slinger" is just a huge mistake. Once we increase the size of the pot we decimate our implied/drawing odds. This is less than ideal against someone who will barrel repeatedly and thus he can/will make it mathematically incorrect for us to draw against him if we make the pot to big.

Against this type of player, we want to keep the pot as small as possible pre when we have Ace rag suited so we can draw and stack him post flop...