ANL- U know you can't play Monday QB like this. I still like folding here because of the # of players who appear interested. Not saying that if whale hadn't screwed up that I wouldn't have raised, but since it is a game of info. and he gave you some good info, gotta go with it.

I agree on the range thing. My comment was just some speculation on what the three had combined. In general at best we have 9 outs (and maybe use 8 because of re-draws from others)...seems to me that in this type of game I probably can find a better spot to get that many blinds in.

Thanks for all the input shorn, it's been very helpful.

I really enjoy reading your insight on a bunch of other MSNL threads (have been lurking these forums quite often the past month preparing for a jump in stakes once my BR reaches 40k) and have learned a good deal from your posts.

Its pretty clear to me now the majority in this forum would flat pre. As played though, and if UTG keeps quiet, is a jam or shove more optimal iyo?

Anytime. I get way more from this place than I add since I don[t consider myself one of the better players on here, but every once in a while I get something right.

tbh, i didn't get that far. When I get to a decision in a hand that I think should never be made, I usually stop right there. I think it's counterproductive/clouds the learning to figure out what to do after doing something we should never do in the first place. And I really think you should never 3-bet that hand in that spot...

I skimmed the results and I pretty much think they showed up with bottom of their ranges fwtw.

grunch

Only person you're worried about is CO. Everyone else is inconsequential and you're way ahead of utg and MP.

CO tanking for so long makes me weigh Axhh a little less likely given MPs ridic wide range and UTGs wide cbet. GIven your sparse reads on the guy who got you into the club, if he can get into marginal spots, I'd probably not fold.. WIth you left to act, no one tanks for 90s with super strong hands given that everyone is pretty much all-in (unless u got a read that he tanks a ton). I think it's more likely MP has 2 pair than nfd which has an overcard, sometimes two. I think it's hard to put him on a hand but he's 100% good enough given reads to probably think that AJ is good here vs MP + utg. So I'd stick it in and expect a ton of FE out of him.

Its an easy fold. This is the one time when you actually had good equity. Even though people play bad they will show up with good hands. Even after seeing the spoiler, I really cant make a case for calling that deep. If I was 100bb in a 3bet pot then getting all-in is fine but your just way to deep to risk running into the middle to top of someones range.

Never? Really??? This is the first time I've ever disagreed with one of your statements. Although i agree that it is not optimal play in the long run, if there is ever a situation to 3-bet light I believe this is it. Just because the hand plays well as is means that we can't ever over rep it? I'm never ever running the risk of getting 4-bet pre at this table with a hand other than AA. In my mind i'm essentially putting more dead money into the pot over repping a hand that plays well multiway in position. Isn't that optimal/ideal?

Could anyone help me out with this? I'm just a 2/5 reg who took a successful shot trying to learn!

In general, you shouldn't 3bet QJs and TJs because its almost always more +EV to flat with them in multiway pots. In this particular spot, with the whale in the hand, 3betting is just terrible.

Yes, i'm aware of this. This whale in particular is never folding. 3 betting certainly might not be optimal, but isn't terrible a little extreme?

Hopefully without sounding like a hater, I believe this actually is terrible. The idea that utg never folds to a 3-bet or that no one ever 4-bets without AA is optimistic at best imo. Also, you are building a huge pot with a hand that is often dominated and needs to flop a miracle to win a big pot. These types of hands just want to see flops as cheap as possible, period. And oh yeah- you already have the button.

Just because it's terrible, that doesn't mean that you are terrible. We all do terrible **** on occasion. The snail-like pace + all the distractions associated with live poker wear everyone down from time to time.

Thanks, I see what you're saying

You think by reducing SPR's, you won't be committed as often post flop

You have it exactly backwards

def. fold

My post was meant to still have a consensus on the optimal play even after we saw what the villain had. Anytime we can capture such dead money and we have a combo draw (folding out CO that is), then I say its almost a no brainer to be +EV to shove. And is it turned out, I would LOVE to be in that spot 100 times that day.

So once the results came in I felt it was like, Oh ok, we were behind, so its good we folded. (Which obv is not the reason we are all here).

No no, this is not what i'm thinking, I'm just speculating... no one knows how the action would have played out in the hand if i did not 3-bet, and once action reached me, given the players and table dynamics, i'm 90% confident that i'm losing a lot in this spot.


Thanks for all your help ANL

on first glance 3b pre seemed really bad but given reads that fish will call a ton still and we're mega-deep I think the 3b can be ok. As played probably fold even if UTG doesn't say anything but so much in pre makes it kinda close, easy snapfold when he announces raise before you.

Fair point. And I agree that most of the time it is a no brainer +EV shove. But I guess the dynamics of this one made me feel like this was one of those times where maybe the range of the group of opponents wasn't quite wide enough to get there. Small difference between us really, probably mostly to do with the fact that I play quite rarely these days and am therefore more reluctant to push slighter EV edges than you.

This is what i've been looking for, do most agree as well?

As usual with close decisions, it wont matter that much either way. I think its +EV, but it isnt some fantastic landslide of expectation. when i say no-brainer it can mean that it is simply +EV, so i dont think much more about it.

Which is also why the battles back and forth on close decisions are worth discussing, yet with the understanding that we really are splitting hairs.

This kind of thinking will due you in.

A few have mentioned that you should be targeting the mark as opposed to 3b'ing the reg, and I 110% agree. That said, I don't mind mixing it up once in a while, but I usually like to have a few good reasons for what I'm doing and for making plays that aren't optimal, and I don't think that such a generalization like the one you stated above is a really good reason to do anything.

Instead of taking an approach that is focused on changing your game for the sake of changing your game, perhaps you'd find it better to focus more on the game at hand. How are your opponents' playing? How is the table playing? Who are the targets? And, what do you need to do to exploit them? Then, build your gameplan and, base it around a strategy that exploits the weaknesses of your opponents and defends against their strengths.

Your "style," so to speak, should really be a result of their styles, and it really should be quite fluid given the myriad of different situations you might encounter. It doesn't make sense to be so rigid in thought or process, that you seem so opposed to the idea of flatting this hand on the button, just because you are OTB, or because you are table captain.

Albeit, I think I can see why you 3b CO, and I don't think it's terrible. But, I do think you'd be much, much better off just flatting. I wouldn't want to build a big pot against the competent player with a hand that could be dominated and cost me a bunch of money it didn't need to while, at the same time, running the risk of squeezing out the whale. I'd flat and invite him in! I'd also be happy to keep CO's range a bit wider by flatting, so that I can possibly make some money with the type of hand I'm most likely to make, which is one pair, in the type of pot I'm likely to win with one pair, a small to medium pot.

^^Got a lot out of your post. Lots of good stuff itt, thanks guys.