As a grizzled old (nearly 50) cash game player I’ve had it drilled into me that a player should always buy in and top up to the max - because when we hit a hand we want to extract the maximum value.

However I may have found an exception and wondered what regs here thought, especially those who play wild home games.

This game is an interesting mix of very good experienced reg/pro live players (up to 5/10/20), some good experienced rec players, and some quite bad wild rich recs. Free booze is flowing and people are competing hard.

The straddle 10 is live and mandatory after dinner. There is also a $10 button jackpot accumulating with every player participating. We occasionally see $200+ on the button, which ofc only the player on the button can win.

Even though the Bi is 700 I’ve been recently buying in and topping up to only 300 (with 1500 in my pocket) for several reasons:

1. It reduces variance in a wild game with tough decisions and wide open opponent ranges
2. It’s a good shove size over a 30 open call call call call call sequence (I am only slightly joking)
3. I can attack with a wider range on the button, especially when the jackpot grows
4. It’s too small an amount for me to feel under pressure, or for pros to be able to apply pressure
5. If I make a mistake in ranging an opponent early on, it’s only a $300 mistake.

So, are these legit reasons to start with and top up to less than half the max - or the machinations of a rec?

Results of your last post where you had AK in the SB in that game you were up huge and then I’ll post my opinion on this...

Just kidding...but, seriously.

I’ll weigh in later, need sleep atm.

I’m sure I posted results! No? He had JJ and flopped J no miracle run out...I had a 4k win instead of a 15k win...life went on

Personally, I don't see the point. I can get behind buying in for $500, but I think $300 is too shallow. One double-up at $500 and you have $1,000. That takes more than three double-ups at $300.

I want money in this game, but I do like the idea of getting deep by winning it, not by just putting it on the table.

(And, yes, I play in similar games.)

I'm sure there are threads on this. My #1 concern would be losing my seat/getting locked out of this game because I was short stacking w rich wild recs. If a near-50 winning player were locking up a seat in my game with pennies glued to the felt, I would have you removed one way or another. You should know by now that game building in 2019 is everything and you think a rich whale wants to be there with you? No. That impacts the profitability of the real players and takes the fun out of it to an extent for the whales - who are there to battle as best they can and likely know their only edge comes from bankroll pressure. You get it. Buy in for the max brother.

Yeah, if it's a private game, shortstacking to exploit loose/gambly players wouldn't make you many friends. These games don't exist for your benefit. They exist to make the runner and their friends money -- and usually this means keeping the whales happy.

That aside shortstacking can be fine. We hate doing it in low stakes games because the rake eats up most of our edge, the meager profit left over probably isn't worth our time, and what the hell are we even doing with ourselves if we can't beat full stack 1/2?

But you actually have an edge over full stacked players with a short stack. They have to consider that their entire stack is at risk. This means folding hands preflop with high equity that they are unlikely to realize. They will also be raising hands which would be fine to raise full stacked, targeting other full-stacked players, which you can take advantage of by jamming over with your short stack.

So if you think you're better off playing with a short stack, you're probably right. Just don't get yourself banned.

Nah, ya didn’t post results.
I actually was pretty sure V had JJ or QQ there even though everyone seemed super sure he was QQ+. Interesting hand that deep, but ya, life goes on.

As for this situation, I agree with everything that all the posters above have said. If it’s a really juicy game (it sounds like it is) I would be concerned about annoying people short buying and shoving premiums on these players all the time like Amanaplan says. That’ll get on their nerves eventually.

But I also agree with Javanewt that you could probably do something similar with $500 buyins, without it being so obvious what you’re trying to do. These guys might be whales, but they probably aren’t stupid, and if you’re going to be +EV in this game and can afford plenty of $500 bullets I think that you can fit into the splashy nature of this game, while reaping some of the benefits of being a bit shorter to start.

I don’t really understand the button jackpot deal? I’ve never heard of this kind of jackpot.

You should never buy in for less than 100bb in this type of game. (Which is 1k given the straddle).

If it plays smaller before that, so can you. You have a little leeway if you start the game with between 500 and 1000 before the limits go up, but even in that scenario you should tread cautiously.

Hate to jump on the Debbie Downer train but the only reason you are getting invited to this game is that you are so bad that the $1500 you have in your pocket will be gone by the end of the night. Otherwise what Amana said LDO.

I’ll respond to the rest of your post and other posts after this has run a bit (only negatives?) but in answer to above, it’s the single greatest side game ever

Each player adds $10 to the button when it gets to them. If you win the hand as the button, you win the pot plus what’s on the button , which may get up to $200+

It creates a super volatile game and there may be times it’s math correct to shove almost a2c when the button comes to you. It also creates artificial action from other players, with lots of trapping and protection raises and reshoves etc

If it’s not at your home game now it will be soon.

that btn JP sounds really fun.

I'm also in the camp that says to only semi short stack, maybe come up with some one liners and jokes to lighten the mood after you jam over a bunch of calls and take it down, or joke about how broke you are with them or something.

And as long as you are willing to play for awhile after you 3x-4x your starting stack I don't think they will really mind. But if you come up with an excuse to leave 20 mins after you triple up, then I wouldn't expect to keep getting invited back.

good luck, sounds like a fun time.

I agree with Amanaplan and others on getting tossed from this game. Buy in for whatever the other low BI players are doing or you will be removed as soon as someone has a buddy that is willing to play like everyone else.


Of course short stacking strategy can work, but the better you make it work, the quicker you'll be gone from the game.

well really 2 double ups, because after the first one you'd be sitting on 600 at that point.

How much is the rake?

I can’t quite believe what I’m reading here.

Your advice as moderator is for me to stop doing something profitable because the better players might make less money and not want to play with me any more?

I guess the whole buy in for the max concept is a crock of **** spruiked by pros to get max easy money on the table. Does that apply to card rooms and casinos too?

Gee sorry to let the cat out of the bag. Fully expect this post to be deleted and the thread locked by morning. Wait...I think hear knocking at my door...

Dude is giving you good advice, you should take it.

I've been magically disinvited from games because I've crushed my opponents and took it seriously when they didn't. Won't do that again.

So funny people are giving advice based on how they think a game is run and how they think shortstackers will be perceived (and not invited back) when they've never played in it.

Hysterical and a little pathetic, actually, especially assuming someone is being invited to a game because they are bad. You guys have zero idea how this game is run, who runs it, what they think, or anything else.

Also pathetic you are giving advice on a game you have never played in either. Guess the next step is to limit the advice to only people who have.

I'm giving advice on (semi) short-stacking in a certain game type -- a type that I play in all the time. Quite different. Nice try, though.

It may not apply to OPs game, but in many cases the middle aged perceived nit doesn't last long if the game runners are sharp. It's at least a perspective that needed to be shared. Whales prefer home games these days and that trend will progress exponentially. Being aware of the dynamics and keeping yourself in the club is critical to making money. Routinely sitting with 300 in a 700 BI game that likely gets bigger is a quick way to 86 yourself from the scene - most of the time.

Look, maybe none of what was said here applies to your game now, but if you weren't aware of how important home game off-table dynamics are then this thread is really a huge won for you. Games like this can evolve in many ways to where you might even choose a strategy now that acts as a loss-leader until you realize what this home game's $$ value truly is. Anyways...GL

OH! And while I'm thinking about it, you should only post strat in threads where the V is female. How much more vitriol would you like me to spew. Rather than contemplate what advice you gave and how idiotic it was, you just say different situation, nice try.

As someone way better than me had already pointed out twice to you, you likely have no earthly idea what you are talking about. I play in these games now almost exclusively.

And I can tell you for certain you and your short stacking friends will not last long.

OP may well have found a game where none of the 90% of advice in this given ITT does not apply. More power to him. While i haven't played in his exact game, i have played in countless others EXACTLY like it.

Playin in a 1/2 game Saturday with optional button straddle to 5 that earns the button ultimate last action. There will also be a $10 rock in play that must be straddled UTG. And there will be a token that moves counter-clockwise and when that player gets the button, he calls what game the table will play for that hand. OH8 to badAcey to 7Stud to Pineapple to PLO.

Almost forgot. The min buy is $200. Rebuys and top offs up to the big stack at the table. You are more than welcome to your own opinions, but please refrain from calling me pathetic in the future. Question: Game starts at 7. What do you think the average stack is by 9? Hint: Way BIGGER than the min buy. But if you want to try and prove me wrong, I can definitely get you a seat.

Thanks in advance for you careful consideration. If you must reply, please put some thought behind it before dismissing what other people say because it doesn't align with your way of thinking. Maybe we can all learn something in the process.

I agree that if people don’t already have good reasons to like you (you are terrible at poker or you have a brimming personality), you run the risk of not getting invited back if you are killing the action with your ss strat. I play 2/5 and the occasional 5/10 game always short and have sensed that my presence was not appreciated. But this was in a casino so there was nothing they could do about it. But I also don’t hit and run. I stay and play deep after a double up.

Thanks. This thread headed down a very weird tangent indeed. I know the organisers of this particular game so well that the invite will be there every week for life. It’s exceptionally well run too.

I’m one of the most aggressive action players at the table (my last 5/10/20 thread, which I just bumped to give results, is indicative). The only three sessions I’ve shortstacked to date have been a single buyin that turned deep quickly (2k+), so I’m not and never will be a nit nursing a small stack and clogging up a seat.

The question I asked in the OP is whether shortstacking then playing aggressively is a viable desirable strategy in such a game. The answer seems to be



Which is beyond hilarious.

This is a strat question to a strat forum.

I specifically asked whether it was good strat to shortstack to allow wider shoving ranges over (I) gravy train multi-way pre action, and (ii) a few occasions every evening where the button gets to me with a ton of cash on it.

But then there are other arguments that may suggest I’m simply losing value by not having the maximum chips on the table at all times.

I’ve never shortstacked in my life, so this is new territory.

Had you posted this little bon mot in the OP maybe you would have gotten a better answer to your question. You are correct. Everybody else just doesn't get it.