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2/3 River Spot with BD 2pair 2/3 River Spot with BD 2pair

12-15-2013 , 04:49 PM
I'm sitting with ~$200 since the floor hasn't brought over my reload yet. Villain in the hand covers.

I've been opening a lot of pots and cbetting a lot but running kinda bad and have had to give up on a lot of pots. It's sort of a running joke that me and the player on my left keep raising every time the loose fishy guy on my right limps (which is like 80%).

I've played with villain one time before but didn't play any pots together. This session, same thing. Late 20's asian, I think Chinese by process of elimination if that matters. Opens tight and haven't seen him flat an open raise before. Occasionally he'll limp behind but generally raises when he enters a hand so I suspect he's pretty solid. Definitely thinks about what's going on, just have no idea what his thought process is.

I open AJhh to 12 UTG+1 after fish folds. Folds around to villain on BTN who flats. BLinds fold.

Flop: 9h 9c 7s
I think for a second (I've been acting quickly in almost every other hand) and bet 20 into 23, planning on barreling a lot of turns and rivers to get him off floats and mid PP's. He calls after a second of thought.

Turn: Jc
I bet 45 into 63, he thinks for a second and calls again. Clear value bet IMO.

River: Ac
I have top two but have no idea what his range is. Pot is 153 and I have ~125 behind. I tank and...

I'll post my thought after a few responses
2/3 River Spot with BD 2pair Quote
12-15-2013 , 11:54 PM
Pre is fine, but dont like the rest.

You of course can construct a range for a solid player. You rep a big hand with an EP raise, so his range is going to be made up of big hand busters, such as all pairs and a lots of SCs, plus some "big" hands that couldnt stomach a raise, such as AQ, TT, JJ etc.

Now flop bet isnt terrible, but think about it, this flop completely whiffs your range, and as such lots of hands that we want to fold, pps, often wont. Of course any 9, 77 and T8 are calling. The good news is AQprobably folds.

The J makes your hand better, but why bet it? Very few club draws call the flop. Small mid pairs will often fold now. T8 just binked. The continuing range is skewed towards hands that beat us. Best move on the turn is to check/call. We have an ok one pair hand, so lets keep worse pairs and bluffs in by checking to rep whiffed AQ or AK. Once we bet we are firmly up against a value range, leaving a PSB OTR and the part of his value range we beat is usually folding the river.

River is a terrible card. It smacks your range, and what missed draws can he have that will bluff it? If he puts another penny in the pot you are toast, Check fold the river.
2/3 River Spot with BD 2pair Quote
12-16-2013 , 12:31 AM
don't think he calls a river jam w/ much that we beat. I would check w/ the intention of calling most of the time.

I like checking because it lets him bluff his busted draws and possibly turn some hands w/ weak show down value into a bluff.(like betting T7 to try and fold out a TT/88) So I'm checking and looking to call barring a read of strength shown by villain.

I think the Ac is a good card for him to use as a bluff vehicle.
2/3 River Spot with BD 2pair Quote
12-16-2013 , 02:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Rays
Now flop bet isnt terrible, but think about it, this flop completely whiffs your range, and as such lots of hands that we want to fold, pps, often wont. Of course any 9, 77 and T8 are calling. The good news is AQprobably folds.
Agree on the point that a cbet and give up on turn is terrible when he calls flop so often but here we pick up equity on a lot of turn cards so I'll be barreling a lot. Consider that when something like a T or 8 rolls off it turns into an easy 3barrel since his turn calling range widens so much with pair+SD's that call and fold river.

Quote:
The J makes your hand better, but why bet it? Very few club draws call the flop. Small mid pairs will often fold now. T8 just binked. The continuing range is skewed towards hands that beat us. Best move on the turn is to check/call. We have an ok one pair hand, so lets keep worse pairs and bluffs in by checking to rep whiffed AQ or AK. Once we bet we are firmly up against a value range, leaving a PSB OTR and the part of his value range we beat is usually folding the river.
Don't think he flats T8 vs EP open. Basically I think I'm good almost all the time on the turn unless he's slow playing. C/c turn to c/f river is pretty bad against anyone who can handread so we're calling anyway. There just aren't that many draws he can have, bluffs are floats and stuff like JT (which I can now get value from). I don't see any value in keeping something like 55/66 or another pair in the pot - no more money is going in unless they bink.

When OOP, I think b/f to get value from a small portion of his range is a much better option than playing guessing games by c/c vs. relative unknowns who are unlikely to bluff all too often. Easy check IP.

Quote:
River is a terrible card. It smacks your range, and what missed draws can he have that will bluff it? If he puts another penny in the pot you are toast, Check fold the river.
Agreed again, don't think our hand is different from AT here but at the same time, I think it's almost always the best hand. One factor in shoving is that it could look bluffy. My range seems polarized firing three here which could induce some hero calls since not many hands make sense for me to shove here. He could also be flatting TT-KK since it's an EP open and the A doesn't change as much as it seems.

I guess in the end, the hand comes down to how you feel about making calldowns.
2/3 River Spot with BD 2pair Quote
12-16-2013 , 03:00 AM
this is one of those spots where c-betting is bad imo
2/3 River Spot with BD 2pair Quote
12-16-2013 , 03:20 AM
I don't see how V gets to river with something that can call AND we beat. I probably check and hope he shoves.
2/3 River Spot with BD 2pair Quote
12-16-2013 , 03:21 AM
Floor doesn't say "100 behind" or something as they go to get your chips? and that 100 is in play?
2/3 River Spot with BD 2pair Quote
12-16-2013 , 03:29 AM
I agree with everything Czech said. Pre is fine, certainly should be cbetting flop most times (although I wonder if 15 into 23 accomplishes the same thing). Seems like 20 into 23 on a flop of this texture is a little big. That being said, maybe I'm wrong. I'm curious as to what people think the optimal Cbet sizing is on this flop.

Also, once you get called on the flop it seems like checking and letting your hand get value from villain taking the lead on turn/river will earn you more money than barreling. You said turn is a clear value bet. What hands do you think you are getting value from?

River is a seemingly deceptive good card for us. If there were not many hands on turn that were behind and putting money into the pot, there are even fewer on the river (calling bets and not making them).

The only hands I could see calling turn that we now beat on river (as in, we were behind and the ace got us there) is maybe QQ and maybe a really poorly played KK. Villain calling flop and turn with 1010 also seems plausible. If he has any of those hands it's pretty unlikely he is calling a bet on the river, maybe a crying call with QQ/KK but he is folding 10s.

I'm curious about the results and would be baffled if he called three streets here with an inferior hand.
2/3 River Spot with BD 2pair Quote
12-16-2013 , 03:34 PM
If we're only sitting with $200 (i.e. 67bbs), and if we're comfortable stacking off with TP (which *might* be debatable on A high boards), then I think we should open to $20 so we have an easy postflop stack off case if we hit TP. I also don't think open limping with suited broadway and getting into a multiway pot for cheap is horrible (although the shorter we are the more we should be opening / committing with these hands, imo).

As weak as this sounds, I think I just check/fold the flop. This ain't a great board to cbet (no pair is ever folding), plus we already have a very cbetty image. I just don't think a cbet (or even a double+ barrel) is going to be very successful here.

With only a little over 2 bets left behind, I think I'm committing on this turn, although it ain't great cuz it does bring in the OESD plus 9x/77 was already crushing. But the very reason I don't think a double+ barrel would be successful in this case on the flop (if I'm reading our image right) is why I'm now cool with stacking off. I'd pot the turn to get the rest in on the river.

Even though that's a bad river card (it actually backs into our range and so we're that less likely to now get called down), I still think I go ahead with the commitment plan and shove. I think if we check, there's just more chance of money going in on the river when we're behind.

ETA: Maybe I'm misreading the reads, but I don't get the feeling this guy is going to bluff us when we check the turn (he's bluffcatching himself with a made hand, imo), plus I get the idea that we have a aggro bluffy image, so I'm cool with the turn bet (although I'd bomb it bigger). I can understand the reason some want to check this river; I guess we're folding to a bet?

GcluelessNLnoobG
2/3 River Spot with BD 2pair Quote

      
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