With one limper you're definitely over valuing your hand pre. When these older rec players actually raise preflop you need to dump ALL RIO HANDS. It doesn't matter that you have position, as most of the time you're just going to find yourself flopping TPDK and facing heat. Then what? It took me years to realize how much money I was saving by dumping these hands in situations like this.

As played on the turn exercise your free card. There is no hand that fires the flop you can beat at this point, and I highly doubt you have any fold equity. If we can't take the option to see a free card in spots like this, what good is position anyway?

I'd take the free card on the turn. Old dudes who raise and then pot the flop here aren't bluffing and are probably not even folding their weaker hands (QQ-TT) to one more bet, and I don't really want to be put in a spot where I feel I'm going to have to fire two bullets here. Plus, there is a slight chance we are drawing to just 2 outs.

GcluelessNLnoobG

raise to 160

So the preflop decision is questionable, and I screw the flop by just calling, my turn play is atrocious and now I am wondering what to do. (4 streets and I am confused a bit on all of them)


effective stacks $360

EP - Lady about 55. tight player who bets strong hands and folds weak ones. Kinda easy to read. I have not seen her tricky.
HJ - 65ish white male who seems like a rec player he has been in two orbits. calls preflop a lot and won a good size pot when his overpair held up and he bet the whole way.
Hero - Rec player who gets confuzzled in big pots.


Preflop
EP calls, everyone folds to HJ who raises to $15. CO folds, Hero on button has QcTc and calls. Blinds fold and original caller calls.


Flop 8 9 K ~$50

EP checks with about 125 behind, HJ bets $50 into the $50ish pot. Hero CALLS .... EP folds

Turn 9 (pot~ 150)

Villain checks, hero bets 100. Villain takes a few seconds and calls.

River J (pot ~350) Villain checks, hero????

uh. shove.

I don't mind the turn bet, but I think betting 75-80 accomplishes the same things that 100 does while minimizing losses.

I'm shoving for massive value on the river.

im TAG so i fold pre
super std flop raise

I pretty much disagree with 90% here and think OP played this perfectly so far.

So I think your pre-flop call is perfect, I think calling the flop is best by far, and I think betting the turn when he checks makes a lot of sense. I think you played it very well.

Calling $15 pre-flop on the BTN with QTs with $360 stacks is just incredibly standard in this situation. It's totally fine and folding is wacky imo. QTo you can fold, sure, but QTs - it's suited.

And calling the flop is good. I actually hate raising the flop - it's atrocious. Villain raised pre and then made a pot sized flop bet into 2 opponents including an EP limp/caller who is probably a fish who doesn't fold often. This texture also hits people very hard. Raising this flop is so bad because you have such little fold equity. Raising serves absolutely no purpose.

Betting the turn when he checks looks good to me, too. Sure it's hard to have a 9, but the 9 is a scare card vs. his range, which is going to be one-pair heavy (AA, AK, KQ) when he checks the turn. The 9 very credibly hits your range with floats and draws (98, T9, J9, Q9s, 97s, etc). You also have SO MUCH pot equity facing a check, that he does NOT need to fold a TON to make a turn bet +EV. You also get to keep firing on rivers...

I like betting this turn, and you would have to consider barreling off on a bunch of scary rivers, too. I mean, it would be nice to know if you think villain can fold, but I think he can (bets flop large to "protect" - check/calls a 9 on the turn, etc).

Now bet the river for value. With ~$200 left in a large pot, I think your only play is to shove. If you were deeper, I might bet a little smaller because I think we're targeting a range of weak one-pair hands.

i agree that preflop is an ez call. ppl that want to fold at this stack depth are super nitty/bad.

willy, to say raising the flop is atrocious is pretty ridiculous. given money in the pot its not like its ever going to be "bad" to raise/gii from an ev perspective. Even if you think the bottom of villains betting range is KQ, most villains, esp 65yo are going to find a fold with 1 pair in this spot some % of the time (even if it is only like 10-20%). and some small % of his range is prob some worse hands like TT-QQ or bluffs, which he'll fold. its pretty rare that you can really know ppl will only have a strong value range in such a spot with 100% certainty.

Furthermore, villain is relatively unlikely to give us a full stack when we call the flop cbet and make a flush on the turn (especially) and maybe river, so getting allin the flop allows to at least win a big pot when we do get there.

i dont think calling the flop is bad, and i would be more inclined to do so if the spr was going to be larger after i flatted and saw the turn. i think the combo of the some folds you get on the flop (or maybe turn if he b/c flop and sometimes c/f the turn) + actually always doubling up when you get there and he doesnt fold, makes raising a little better.

so you have 195 left into a pot of 350 and you just hit your gin card. simple. bet as much as you think he will pay off, which in this case, is a shove.

and yes, if you have some kind of crazy read that V has KK here, you can check it back. but if you had that read, you should checked the turn.

Yeah, saying it's atrocious is strong, but I feel bad for OP with everyone saying he played it horribly. I think he took the best line from start to finish as long as he jammed river.

I agree with Willy here, I like the whole line.

You're on the Button, using your positions Wisely, and playing some poker.

Now shove the river and get yourself a nice whiskey to celebrate.

I did shove the river. Thanks for the feedback. I felt lost but still took a respectable line. Thanks everyone. Large pots get me double guessing.

As played, we only have ~$200 left in ~$350 pot and it's been checked to us, so I think it's an easy shove at this point.

GcluelessNLnoobG