Got into an interesting spot last night in the 2-3 game which is normally the biggest game in the room with only 1 table going on the weekdays.

Straddle is on button for $10 and we are 7 handed right now.

Loose, not very good player opens from SB acting first to $25 and he has about a $200 stack.

BB calls, UTG+1 who is a loose reg who plays literally every day (not sure if hes somewhat a pro or what) just calls, folds to hero who has KQs.

Thought about just calling and raising as options. With SB being loose and short stacked i decide to raise because I dont mind being all in with him with this hand.

Hero 3bets to $150. Folds to SB opener who calls (leaving himself like 40-50 lol).

BB folds, UTG +1 now backjams for another $365. Needless to say I was surprised. I have not seen him make this move before and I've played with him a lot since hes always there and he typically gets out of the way when I 3bet because he has only seen me 3bet premiums large like this.

Am I supposed to call this off? I went into the tank for a while. Im really worried about being dominated by AK/AQs. Maybe w all the money in the pot I just have to call, but I dont know.

What is your stack size and what is the stack size of the remaining players when you first 3bet?

I don't think we can fold. Our EV when we call is:

3 way equity * (635 - rake) + 2 way equity * 330

It is hard to give villains a range where your EV isn't > 365 when you call. That said, you're behind.

How to play the first time action gets to you is not super clear. UTG+1 really shouldn't have many traps after BB calls, but it has happened in live poker. It isn't crazy for BB to trap here sometimes though, but it just doesn't happen that often. You are going to raise to a size that us going to pot commit SB, there is no avoiding that. The question is, do you just go 200? Then you are pot committing yourself and you might as well jam. Which might mit be horrible. You will be given so much credit I think SB will overfold. UTG +1 will rarely have a hand he will want to call off with. Mid PPs and AQ would be really comfortable facing this jsm, but might decide to go with it the way you played it.

Your other option is to 3bet smaller. But when the original raiser is short stacked and other stacks are deeper, we can't go as large as we normally would even if we are going to commit the short stack no matter what. First of all, 150 is 4x + 1x per caller which is too big in position. With the short stack, I think in position 3betting probably makes more sense as 3x + 0.5 per caller. So about 100. This sort of sizing is sometimes reflected in tournaments where original raiser is short stacked and there is a deeper cold caller in between. Then we could get away from it if someone deep with us rejams.

I still don't know that we can get away from it if we go 100 and then UTG+1 back jams. The main thing I am worried about is AQ, but I think he can show up with a pocket pair worse than QQ so often that I think are equity is going to be in the high 30s %.

That said, I kind of like jamming here unless we are super deep with someone left to act. Going $100 promotes some overcallers and I don't think we can fold to a back jam, so it feels like going for max fold equity is the strongest play.

Thanks for the response.

So i am a bit ovet 800 stack size and there are 2 decent players behind me yet to act in the CO and Button straddle and they about equal stacks with me so that is why i didnt want to just jam.

I was really surprised by the backjam. Ive never seen him make that play and he 3bets reasonably often and normally only flats an open if hes in CO or BTN.

In game im racking my brain to figure out how could he just flat TT or JJ here with the open and call in front of him already so thats what really made me think hes trapping and that he has to know im strong to make this play when im putting the original raiser all in basically.

With that dynamic and the sticky players with the effective UTG opening I would just flat pre the first time and as played we're most likely way behind him I don't see how we have to call.

All in

Correction, I meant your EV is:

3 way equity * (635 - rake) + 2 way equity * 630

Sigh-fold vs. this player doing this for basically the first time. You are dominated. Call only if you want to gamble.

I think with the deeper good players left going 100 makes sense.

QUOTE=Playbig2000;58485587]With that dynamic and the sticky players with the effective UTG opening I would just flat pre the first time and as played we're most likely way behind him I don't see how we have to call.[/QUOTE]

Because when you work out the EV even if you have 25% equity in the main pot and 35% in the side pot, and $10 rake, it is a + EV call. You likely have more than that. Go play with their ranges in an equity calculator.

For side pot against any pocket pair lower than QQ you have like 46.5+ % equity. I thinkbpocket pairs lower than QQ will make up a large part of UTG+1 's range for population. Even if you give villain AKo, AQs, AQo, JJ, and TT, we STILL have over 35%. And AK should be discounted a fair bit, and other lower PPs can be there.

We should be thinking about EV, not just if we are ahead or behind. Even if our EV is $10 or $20, yeah it sucks that we are going to lose most of the time, but should definitely call.

Because when you work out the EV even if you have 25% equity in the main pot and 35% in the side pot, and $10 rake, it is a + EV call. You likely have more than that. Go play with their ranges in an equity calculator.

For side pot against any pocket pair lower than QQ you have like 46.5+ % equity. I thinkbpocket pairs lower than QQ will make up a large part of UTG+1 's range for population. Even if you give villain AKo, AQs, AQo, JJ, and TT, we STILL have over 35%. And AK should be discounted a fair bit, and other lower PPs can be there.

We should be thinking about EV, not just if we are ahead or behind. Even if our EV is $10 or $20, yeah it sucks that we are going to lose most of the time, but should definitely call.[/QUOTE]

Im surprised that you are of the opinion that his range has a lot of pocket pairs lower than QQ and that he doesn't mostly have hands that totally dominate us. Im also surprised you are discounting AK so much because in game I was thinking he had a lot of AK when he takes this line.

You think because he just flats when normally he always 3bets that he doesnt have much AK, or do you think he doesnt have much AK just based on population/experience?

This: I was giving him a range of KK+ since he called him from UTG+1 the first time so we would be around 15 to 20% max, and the dynamic is hero's played with him a lot but he's never seen him do this. I don't think he would be as wide as you ranged him when there's already so many people in the pot.

I was giving him a range of KK+ since he called him from UTG+1 the first time so we would be around 15 to 20% max, and the dynamic is hero's played with him a lot but he's never seen him do this. I don't think he would be as wide as you ranged him when there's already so many people in the pot.

It was a tough spot for sure.

Can I tell you guys what happened and see what you think or do I need to wait until tomorrow?

Not yet, unfortunately the rule is you have to wait at least 24 hrs but it's better for you and everyone anyway when more people chime in you'll get a better consensus.

Most players 3bet kk and QQ at 100% frequency. Most players 3bet AK Most of the time. Players 3bet AQ frequently. Yes he can have AQ and once in a while someone can have an oddly trapped hand. Even when you give him those hands at a discounted weight, it isn't too hard to get 35% equity here.

KK and QQ yes but AA no. People love to get cute with aces like this imo. He back jammed for 500 after calling only 25 pre. I just don't see him showing up with AQ, even if he has AK we're still dominated, He of course could have anything but I think he has AA a lot here, enough for me to fold but I would of flatted pre anyway so I don't find myself in these types of spots (I don't like 3betting short openers with KQs to begin with unless I'm happy to gii heads up with him, because if they're calling they're usually jamming pre or the rest goes in otf anyway, and I do have a hand that can play multi way).

That does make some sense

I second the above comment that flatting is interesting to play IP vs idiot. If we hit we may well stack him and have room to maneuver unlike if we put him all in, in which case it's just luck. If the idiot doesn't hit anything and folds we still have a good MW hand.

Reveal:

@Mlark was 100% correct here about the jamming player's range and what we should do.

Sadly, hero folded. In game my first thought was that I have enough equity to call it off here. But, I was up pretty good in this session and let the emotion of booking a win and not risking a good portion of the stack influence my thinking that villain had me dominated too often.

Original raiser from SB with the short stack showed up with AK, which is what I was afraid the backraiser villain had. The flop was K T x and ran out with low cards turn and river and SB won. Backraiser mucked without showing. So hero wouldve stacked him. Probably had some middle PP or maybe a suited AQ/AJ/AT hand.

Surprise, surprise.

Don't feel too bad. These are tough spots to navigate. Normally we are never going to stack off with KQs in a cash game playing at normal depths. But having played long enough in Texas, I have been in enough odd spots like the one you described and went back ran equities later to have an idea of what we need to call off with.

Just read the reveal, but honest enough to admit I probably wouldn't call off here.

The BTN straddle seems to create these wonky ranges / lines for EP players, with more back-raising.

If UTG+1 is a decent reg, he's probably not back-4B-jamming very often with a hand much worse than KQs when the SB opens for a raise and then calls your 3B, leaving himself only 40-50 behind.

You MIGHT have been flipping against a PP lower than QQ, but I don't see decent regs taking this line with small and middling pocket pairs. I would think his back-jamming range is heavily weighted towards JJ+ and better AX combos that have KQ dominated.

Admittedly, I've never played in Texas. But it's creeping toward the top of my bucket list.

Take away:

Don't be results oriented. He showed up at the bottom of his range, maybe queens or jacks. KQ doesn't usually stand up too well there going all in pre for 172 big blinds.

You most likely hit a 2 outer, so questioning your play is being very results-oriented. Folding was correct.

Disagree. I spent quite a bit of time calculating the EV of the hand, playing with equity calculators for different probability weighted ranges. People are way underestimating how easy it is to be behind a range, including being dominated by some hands in the range, and still have the equity to call off here.

Did BB jam for "another $365" meaning $515 total, which is how I read it? Or, was it $365 total?

I read it as 365 on top.