7 handed table. Lots of LAGgy personalities playing a mix if chicken and go fish with each other. Hero card-dead. Seen as nitty despite many random A5 & below showdowns from late position. Main Villain new to table, but has history withhero. The main reason why I post this is because of how infrequent 4bets are PF, and really narrow mostly everyone's range to AA/KK. Also, I need help calculating equity against multi-way ranges.

4 handed. Effective stacks 95BB

EP: Old woman from either Middle-East or Asia Minor. A stubborn old hag who seems keen on rivalry and stealing pots. Bets almost always when checked to her, even in 4+way pots. Has shown aggression with draws, such as donking flush and open-end draws. Will call 3bets PF fairly wide. Any 2 face cards would do. Seems to overestimate TP type hands, trying to quickly stack.

open limps.

MP: MAWG. Text-book LAG, not the winning kind. Has been with Hero at table for over 5hrs. Managed to septuple his 3rd buy-in. Many ugly catches, along with random weakness holding up to even ****tier opponents who have come and gone. This guy will always raise IP with ~40% of his hands. Shows aggression to mostly all post-flop weakness.

Raises to $20


BTN. Main villain. Young guy. Typical TAG style. Sees hero as another competent player. If not a reg in this sub, probably has the knowledge of one. Adjusts well to other players and tends to place opponents on credible ranges. He seemed to pick up the type of table he was at and has been playing ABC so far.

Re-Raises to $70. I see all AK/JJ+ combos doing this, as well as some TT/AQ or even AJ suited.


Hero in SB looks down at KK. I realize that jamming is a profitable option. I'd like to know if flatting could make more. I see EP calling wide enough (any PP and QJ+) and MP going along with something similar, if not even SC and AXss type hands should he be the 4th to enter. However, we are OOP, so that leaves us in a precarious situation post. Anyways, I realize conventional wisdom says jam, which is what I've always done in the past, but in the moment I felt all I'd do is collect the 30BB in the pot if I jammed. I'd like some help breaking down the math and tact behind going against 3 other ranges being 1st to act post.

Raise

If you flat the 3 bet, your hand pretty much face up KK/AA, and you invited more opp to see the flop, so you are first to act after the flop, you will only get action if they have you beat, so get the value now plus protecting your hand a little bit and jam


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

4bet 155. And jam all flop.

If V folds to you every time besides AA/KK. Then you can profitably add AK for 4bet as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If Villain is a competent player, then alarm bells are going off in his head when we take a 3bet cold to the face. I'm not convinced he's going to get too out-of-line postflop if we flat. Position doesn't really play much into this for me since flatting will create a super low SPR (which negates position, and in fact the one who has the first chance to bluff actually might be at advantage). I'd probably shove here and just hope Villain puts me on AK and can't fold JJ, or has AQ and puts me on JJ willing to take the flip.

Never contemplating a fold with 95bb at this action table especially against a thinking Villain.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I disagree completely.

Even though it is 4 handed it doesnt seem that a more aggressive dynamic is taking over based on reads given. That being said, 4! vs a seemingly competent tag is going to turn your hand face up much more so than a flat. I like flatting here, b/c it will give the opportunity for the lag to go crazy pre with a shove b/c of all the dead money or make some type of post flop mistake. Plus on a bunch of runouts you will get at least 1 cbet out of button tag and on good flops it will be difficult for him to fold everything that KK beats once you check and he bets.

Plus Plus if tag knows lag is opening wide he may be 3! pretty wide. Makes flatting that much better.

This. Flatting makes your range wider, though obv you have a big hand, TT+.

Flat to see if EP or MP come along or make a move. Never folding pre, check/jam all non A flops, someone is likely to stab at it.

Yea, I don't see how flatting faces up KK/AA more than cold 4b jamming.

I'm gonna ignore the math even though I think OP really wanted to know the numbers behind the profitability of flatting vs shoving. I can plug some **** into a equity calc, but it's not my realm of expertise. Anyway,

I think if you:

1. have a big bankroll
2. don't mind variance
3. may be playing against some observant opponents in the future like our alleged TAG/LAG
- 3.1 meta game their asses
- 3.2 become harder to read when flatting 3 bets and 4 betting

Just call.

If those factors don't really apply, just shove.

Winning 30 BB uncontested is a fine result. If we go 4-way to the flop we will likely have 30-32% equity of a $280 pot. We will have poor relative position on the 3! however so there is no dead money to squeeze after a c-bet. Really I see no reason to flat here. The action is also likely to check through on many flops with jacks and tens as BTN will fear sets. Just 4! pre.

If we were on the BTN with this same situation, I would flat some % of the time because we can bet and driver the action. Being OOP really sucks to try to get money into the pot. We want all these idiots to put money in with weak 1 pair hands then feel obligated to call a raise. That's really tough when we either have to lead or check/raise

Also if V is starting to light 3! The lag, you could start light 4! Him, but that is situational

I think jamming is the best option. However, it helps to know the true stack sizes of the woman here. If you and the TAG are 95bbEff, but the woman is shorter, you might shove your 300 into 90, she might call (if she has like 150-200 more) trying to quickly stack like you said, the lag and tag might fold, and then you're AIPF against someone with a much weaker range. You could also just look at her and see if she's about to muck.

Still, personal preference, but I hate flatting here. Even if she folds and the LAG calls, you're oop in a bloated pot, and that just makes me uncomfortable. The only reason I would like flatting is if the LAG is going to ship, then you can see what the TAG does and possibly snap off.

You are saying button is not going to cbet with an over pair on safe flops because of fear of sets? That sounds pretty crazy to me. Maybe bet fold, but I highly doubt v is going to 3! and then not cb w/ TT-QQ. Maybe he wont cbet because he is afraid we flatted with a higher over pair but not because he is afraid of sets.

Shoving doesn't seem that bad either but we are almost never getting called by worse here. I didnt realize there was a gypsy limper. I was wondering why johnny buz mentioned 4way 3! pot before. I would still be very surprised if she would limp call 70 but either way, shoving is probably best here.

LoLllsnl villians will call to much so when on the edge of decisionmaking, #pileitin

No, I'm saying I think flops with JTx, Jxx, T9x and Txx will often check through because a) villain can be 3! non-pairs and b) villain will fear the J/T/9 sets from our 3! cold call range. The end result is we end up giving 3 people a free shot at seeing 4 cards.

Not 4! is a pretty big mistake. If you are going to call pre then you absolutely have to ship any non-Ace flop. Checking the flop is the absolute worst option.

Alright. I need to work on my reading skills. Agreed that this is a 4! pre though.

easy flat. would rather underrep our hand and shove on all non ace flops.

shoving pre is ok, but we reduce variance and make a bit more if we wait until the flop.

lol.

If he sees you as a thinking player hes obviously going to realise you aren't flatting 1/3 of your stack with TT or AK out of position. Just ram it in and hope that he has AK/JJ/QQ type hand and decides to call because he only needs like 40% equity and easily has that when you have hands he will be flipping with in your range.

Flatting is going to look stronger unless he views you as a complete moron, which you say isn't the case. A thinking player is only going to push/fold with hands that are weaker than KK but still good enough to play here and you're never flatting air so your range is totally nutted flatting.

Flat pre in position, cold 4-bet OOP.

The issue isn't only the PFR raiser though. The issue is that with flatting, he can get calls from the other two VPIPers and presumably they don't see how strong the flat is. After that, playing the hand with an SPR less than 2 is pretty straightforward getting it all in in the vast majority of flops.

Also, the PFR's range could be weakish as he 3bets with a linear range which includes a lot moderate strength hands that won't call a 4bet all in.

So, it's an open question to me, which is the most EV+ line.

The problem to me with this is that the other vpip'ers can actually now call the 3-bet with a ton of hands and it will only at most be a rather small mistake to do so, given the implied odds and immediate odds being offered. If the lady folds then MP is offered 3-1 immediate odds and another 3x in implied from us, possibly more from BTN if BTN is deep.

This is KK vs a ridiculous 40% opening range:

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 78.149% 77.78% 00.36% 3668070036 17180040.00 { KK }
Hand 1: 21.851% 21.49% 00.36% 1013255100 17180040.00 { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }

I'm rather sure OP was exaggerating rather extremely saying that MP actually opens 40% of hands, but even if he were, we can see that he could continue with his entire opening range for that price and it wouldn't really even be much of a mistake - if we remove some of the more ridiculous opens like Q8o, K7o etc and replace them with more likely hands like 86s, 76s, 75s etc which are not included in stove's top 40% then it becomes even less of a mistake for him to call the 3bet 100% of the time. If we then consider the fact that he's going to fold all of his garbage hands to the 3b anyway and call with a range that is going to be doing even better, as well as the fact that he is in position on us and has pretty much guaranteed implied odds then really I think we're the ones making more of a mistake by just calling here.

If the lady calls then that's ofc a mistake by her but even then the one benefiting most from it will be MP now getting ~4.5-1 with position on 2 players.

I think shoving here is super straightforward, I'd much rather try get BTN to stack off with a dominated hand that he is far more likely to get away from if we flat, and I think we're trying to rely on too many other things going right for us in order to make more by flatting (no ace on the flop, MP to get a piece of it that is enough to stack off with but not a bigger piece than us and then miss his outs, BTN to still commit post flop when it should be obvious we're nutted, presumably someone to bet the flop after we check).

With no guarantee of stacking someone postflop I'm much happier to jam now when theres ~$100 in the pot already. If we were the initial PFR or something and our cold call wasn't going to look so strong I'd be much more on board with flatting the 3b and letting BTN c-bet but here I think it sucks.

Flatting would be alright if TAG V 3bet a tight opener and no limpers were involved.

As it is TAG is 3betting a loose isoraise so can be somewhat looser than normal himself. Limper and opener can potentially overcall if we flat the 3bet without it being an enormous mistake.

Here I prefer to instajam preflop. This can easily be interpreted as a wide value raise or a stupid rebluff vs BTN's perceived squeeze. Consequently BTN or one of the other villains can level themselves into a bad call with pairs or AQ+.

If you get shown AA it is definitely a cooler in this spot. If you just pick up the dead money that's a perfectly acceptable outcome.

I think this is a great spot to make a very small raise. If we just kinda "click it back" we create a lot of dead money mostly forcing the limper and the opener out of the pot and we go heads up with the 3 bettor who will likely call us given the huge price he gets when we min raise and others fold.

1) our hand plays best heads up
2) our hand plays best with a small stack to pot ratio
3) we are out of position and that makes it preferable to reduce SPR
4) we can still get value from worse hands if we use small sizing
5) players tend to over value immediate odds and under value reverse implied odds in these spots so I'd bet villain can still make mistakes post flop if he flops a dominated top pair/over pair with something like AQ or KQs/AJs, TT-QQ
6) he may even jam over our small raise (never know)
7) We OUGHT to have a raising range here, especially being OOP and if we are going to raise anything I can't imagine why we wouldn't raise KK.
8) we can get a really good SPR for just jamming many flops.

I'd go something like $140 or $150 and just rip it in on most flops and i actually feel pretty confident that this is about the best we can hope to play this spot.