I'd like to check my thinking on flop and turn, so I guess I ll try to make this multi-part...

v1 UTG($146), v2 UTG+1($270)
Both text book definitions of terribad $1/$2 fish. Way too loose, super stations, passive/aggressive at the wrong times. Both have stacked off in the last 20 mins GII on flop with TP lowK.

Hero OTB($440) has been fairly active due to cards. Down early, but winning now.

Preflop: v1 raise to $16, v2, v3, v4 call. Hero OTB calls with A5

Flop($83) QJ8
v1 bets $15(lol), v2 raises to $45, v3&v4 fold, hero......???????

I will post hero's situation on the turn once I get a few thoughts on preflop/flop. Thanks in advance..

V1 DID raise pre, so this should narrow his range down significantly since from your descriptions they would l/c a lot pre. As such we can eliminate all 2P combos from his range, and 88 is also discounted here. I'd say that AK, AQ, TT-AA are pretty much exclusively his range. The only part of this range which he would ever fold here is AK, and even then he may not fold since he's a super station. (TT and 99 are also calling since ZOMG PAIR AND DRAW)

Given his description, V2's range is Qx+. Since we have the Ah, V1 never has a draw, and your description of V2 he also never has a draw. As such we almost always have at least 8 outs to the nuts here, with 9 outs being likely, and possibly 12 outs being good.

Against these ranges, the only real disaster is having ONE V fold whilst another calls/ships. Ideally we either get AI OTF against both Vs, or see a turn against both Vs, which given their clear bet-sizing leaks, will likely also allow us to see a cheap river.

I think the optimal line against these particular Vs is to just flat, see a turn, and likely see a cheap river. If we hit the flush on any street we just shovel money in, since they don't sound like the type of player to fold TP.

If V1 raises over V2 however, regardless of what V2 does, we have to ship. This is because at this point they have both announced that they are NOT folding, so we need to make sure we see both a turn and river with good pot equity.

EDIT: Just re-read the OP, so it seems that you flatted the flop raise and so did V1.

If a heart falls on the turn and it's checked to you, bet $95. This is below the psychological barrier of $100 for this sort of fish, and will leave them feeling committed to a river shove. If V1 bets and V2 calls, also shove. The only tough spot is if V1 checks and V2 bets. I'd take a good look at V1, and see whether or not he is planning to call/fold after you act. If V1 looks like he's folding regardless, shove, otherwise flat and GII on any river. (Unless turn was Jh and river is Q or J).

On any other turn, I'm either calling of folding depending upon the sizing, with myself calling the majority of the time considering their flop sizings. Even if the turn pairs the board, we're likely still going to be good if we hit a flush, and are still likely going to get paid by worse, even if we occasionally run into some boats.

Actually, I haven't posted v1 or my action to the flop raise yet... misread?
Thanks for you thoughts!

We don't really have enough reads on villains. You say they're bad, but we don't really know HOW bad. We need examples.

Even against two 'bad' players, we should typically be folding the flop. It's a really connected board (lots of two pair combinations).

We're rarely a massive favorite, unless we get it in vs. a bare flush draw.

I agree that we are not in great shape, but I don't think folding is a good plan.

There is $140 in the pot, one V has shown weakness betting super small into a 5 way pot. We can assume that he's likely not coming over the top, so we have direct 3.2:1 odds on the flop, (4:1 if we assume that V1 will come along for the ride and call with whatever he has) and we are told that they are pretty stationy.

This means that if we smash the turn we can almost always expect to get paid and make at least 5:1 more on our money. Can't see how this can be a fold here.

I would flat and feel pretty good about it. If V1 shoves, and V2 re shoves, we might have to fold. But I'd have to do some ranging to determine how profitable we can be calling to try and win the side pot/main pot. But I don't get the sense that is likely.

I'm fine with the preflop call. The raiser's stack is horrible, but there are going to be at least 3 others in the hand who we have a chance at stacking, plus we have the best seat in the house.

I'd call the flop. Thanks to the lol cbet and raise sizes, we're already getting 3:1+, plus if raiser comes along we're already getting our required odds. The only danger is the raiser coming over the top, but I kinda don't sense that given such a weak bet into a large field on a drawy board. And even though the pot is big and worth winning, and we have the nut flush draw + over, in general I think our FE against raisers is like pretty close to 0 (which is why our implied odds are so juicy) so I wouldn't consider raising.

GcluelessNLnoobG

So, my first instinct was to flat call the raise from v2. But since I tend to play these kinds of pots too passively, I also considered shoving as well. When I thought it through though, it dawned on me that i pretty much have 0% FE here(as gobbledygook points out). First of all, given his stack size, v1 is already likely committed to this pot. They both have showed some strength in this hand and neither player had displayed any discernible ability to find a fold during the time I d been watching them play. And I was in all likelihood behind at least one of them, if not both, at the moment.

Assuming v1 calls the bet behind me, I have to call $45 to win $173+implied which is more than enough to justify just seeing the turn card. So, I call and v1 calls behind me. I think my thought process was solid here, no?

Turn($218) 5 !

V1 shoves $85 AI, v2 calls $85($125 behind), hero...??????

Hero has nuttiness. Does hero shove or does he flat $85???? How can hero best get his hands on v2's remaining stack? And is there any reason for hero to be worried about letting v2 see a free river?

V2 is obviously committed and since he has a hard time folding it's an obvious shove on the turn for value.

Calling turn is terrible since he may find a fold if another heart falls, or if he has a pair+SD which whiffs.


(Also, when you said in the OP that there was a turn decision, it made it obvious that both you and V1 flatted.)

Flop is actually closer between call and fold, than call and raise.

Pre flop is a fold. Villains aren't deep enough. As played I'd fold flop.

Yup, I agree and see that now. The call I think was the right choice though given I had enough odds to justify seeing one card, let alone both turn and river.

soul read.

I actually did almost folded pre flop. But the other 2 callers in the hand who folded on the flop had me covered and with these 2 spews in the pot, I think it was an decent call. Marginal maybe, but not a bad call?

Hero's hand is dead via two 5

But seriously though I don't mind flatting here, shouldn't be too difficult to get the remaining $125 in on the river.

here are my thoughts:

Call pre and call on flop.

I think calling that is fine on the button. Four callers in front of you and two are fish and the pot odds are great. Implied odds aren't amazing, but good enough.

On the flop I think calling is the best play by far. We don't want to raise and get rid of other heart draws and our mutliway equity against their likely ranges is actually quite good. We also dont compromise our positional advantage against these fish on future streets by getting it in now.

On the turn raising vs. smooth calling is close. I wouldn't think it's a mistake either way. I'd tend to raise to prohibit villain form making a hero fold on the river if a 4th heart peels off.

NH

FLOOOORRR!!!! Oops, sorry it was actually 6

On the turn, I think this is an easy ship. I think pot is like $380 by the time it gets to us, V2 has already put in over half his stack and only has a rather piddly $125 left. I just don't think he finds a fold the majority of the time here. There's also a crapload of scare cards that could possibly make him hero fold the river (a 4th flush card, a four-to-a-straight T/9).

Gnicehand,imoG