2/3/5 500 max fun table

V1 is a middle-aged Indian guy sitting on $1000+ and the spot at the table. He plays literally every hand (mostly limping and calling raises). Plays really silly like making a $6 blocking bet OTR into a $150 pot and folding to any raise, flatcalling a turned set then overbet-raising river and showing the table, stationing all the way to the river vs small bets, etc. Probably also has an iota of bluffing in him, etc.

Hero ($800) has been playing snug in the half an hour at this table and the only hand he has shown down has been AJs that raised pre in LP, got two calls and then overcalled the same $35 bet on F/T/R vs some old guy in BB and V1 in MP on an Axxxx board, old guy showed ATs, V had god knows what.

V2 ($675): Some young white kid in SB who I saw barreling bottom pair into 3 players and get called OTR. Doesn’t seem good or anything either for that reason.


OTTH....

Old guy ($1100) limps in MP,
V1 ($1000) limps in CO,
V2 ($675) completes in SB,
Hero ($800) raises AsQd to $40 in BB,
Everyone calls.

Flop ($160): Qd 8s 5s
V2 checks, H bets $100, Old guy folds, V1 raises to $230, V2 calls, H ???

A few thoughts that ran in my mind at the time:

1. We block the NFD.
2. V1’s preflop range is ATC that could’ve flopped 2p on this flop. But there’s a chance he might be making an information raise with TP to get a cheap showdown.
3. He doesn’t seem the type to raise draws and for that sizing, but it’s also weird that he would raise so small with a vulnerable 2p on this board.
4. V2’s overcall confuses me, could be 55 but also a flush draw.
5. Even if V2 is on a draw, shoving is out of question since I’ll be owned vs V1’s calling range.
6. If we call here, we are just praying it checks down to the river since we can’t put any more money OTT unless we hit a Q or A.

We always talk about bet/folding as the strongest weapon in these games, is this yet again another bet/fold spot when 160 BBs are on the line?

And if we’re bet/folding here, are we only continuing with a set of queens assuming we’re bet/folding AA/KK too on the assumption that a flopraise is mostly always 2p+ at this level (although having AA/KK seems slightly better to call as we unblock Qx that an opponent may be overplaying)? Or are opponents really overplaying TP often enough at this level?

I'd raise bigger pre with all hands on this table especially OOP. Like $50. I think I take a turn and evaluate. V2 probably shoves his value with his stack size. And yes you absolutely can't shove flop cause the range that calls destroys you.

Really don't like this rationale for why we can't shove flop.


There is absolutely an argument here to be made for protecting our equity in this situation. The pot is massive with the action, the board is very wet and we have a good hand. Yes having the As blows but saying you absolutely cannot shove flop here is just simply not true.

Momo,

1) letting them both pay $35 on all streets in the prior hand was just plain horrible.

2) if you’re having problems like this post-flop at this table, you should consider limping this hand in the blinds.

Agree. Ship it. It's higher variance, but highest EV.

In a fun action game, the flop is the best time to get loose calls from draws and dominated hands. Pot is already massive, and hands like KsQx, QJs, 9sTx are much more likely to call now than OTT where scare cards can kill action.

Flatting calling when OOP against V1 isn't actually a bad plan. You have little to no FE on a raise and since his range is ATC no idea where you stand post flop. Plus, he leans stationary. Against this sort I'm trying to see as many cheap flops as possible and evaluate post flop. With position I would raise AQ for value but OOP seeing the flop first is OK.

As played make your call and go with it. Is V1 mostly passive and his raising range is going to be strong? Or does he have some aggression with worse hands, semi-bluffs and bluffs in his range? What to make of V2's flat call for a good portion of his stack also matters. If V2 has any sense then folding is probably best but if he can turn up with worse QX or with weaker draws then shove now.

I favor folding or shoving. Heads up with a good handle on villain's drawing range then I might flat and act on the turn but here who knows?

Players are bad enough, board wet enough, SPR small enough and our hand strong enough to justify raise/GII on the flop.

All aboard the variance express. Choo chooooo!!!!

I wasn’t the one doing the betting. It was the old guy (who called in the blinds) donking thrice, who could also show up with AQ/AK there even with the “same bet” on all streets, based on how I had seen him play, so I didn’t think I was necessarily ahead with AJ given my snug image. Raising at any point feels like a slight overplay. If I raise, I’m sure he would just fold his AT. And the fun Indian player might fold too.

Tbh, it was a crying call OTR for me, given all possible two pair combos possible with Ax.

This hand is just way too strong to fold against a 100% vpip whale. You lose to so few hands and he has so many combos of garbage he could randomly choose to bluff with, or have any Qx which thinks it's value raising. I'd just jam OOP.

I plugged a a range of 5|100 into equilab and we're only beaten on this flop 2.3% of the time, and we still have 25% equity when behind. You can't count on him to be so disciplined to be raising only the 2.3% of the time we're beat and not spazzing with the 97.7% of his range we beat.

I'm more concerned about V2, but this shallow it's whatever if he has us beat.

Maybe I’m gg incarnate but I fold these spots

RESULTS:

Hero folds.

Turn ($720): 3c
V2 checks, V1 shoves $400 eff, V2 calls

River ($1520): 8d


V2 says “missed” and mucks. V1 rolls over Q9o FTW.

Hero goes on life-tilt.

Yah folding flop is really bad man.

So basically if you flatted and let him continue overplaying Q9, you woulda stacked him. If you shoved, he might have folded. Even whales have some basic human intelligence. You could also pick the turn cards you get it in with instead of basically doing spray and pray with your stack.

If I called flop, I don’t think he was that brainless to shove turn 3-way because he’d be afraid of KK/AA/Q9+. He shoved HU because he put V2 on a draw.

Which means I am in a really gross spot the times he does decide to shove turn.

OTOH, if turn goes ccc, V2 might decide to bluff shove river and I’m in a gross spot again.

So raise the flop. Problem solved.

Except it's not a gross spot. AQ is just very hard to have beaten on such a dry board.

Doesn’t really solve the problem unless I know exactly that he raises that sizing for info with TP and larger with 2p+, right?

Besides that, he’s only calling better if I shove so even if I know he has Q9o, I want him to stick around.

If he has Q9o there, he can also have Q8o, 85s, 85o or Q5s there.

How would I know he’s doing this with Q9o anyway?

Not really when they have ATC here and when I’m the snug PFR facing a raise OTF.

I used to think that way too... played a hand last week where I raise KK to 35 over a fish’s UTG limp..

Flop (75): Q83r
I cbet 30, he check raises to 105, I call

Turn (285): 7x
He shoves 300, I call

He has Q8o.

This hand was playing in my mind at the time.

It may seem counterintuitive, but an ATC range has fewer strong hands than a more reasonable range. A tighter range doesn't have any two pairs, but has sets far more often.

SPR is ~4 with TPTK against a whale. You just don't fold these hands.

It's really not even a big deal to hand him the money if he only has better hands here (which I really doubt is the case). His strategy as a whole is still hemorrhaging money to yours.

I was thinking maybe a cbet or $125-30 might encourage the whale to just flat flop and let me keep control of the hand?

Betting small induced him and he went ahead and made an information raise, leading to an erroneous fold on my part.

I didn’t say to shove.

You gave us a read. We determined you are crushing his range. V2 is almost certainly drawing. It’s just a clear raise for value spot.

Also, your KK vs. Q8 hand is not remotely close to the same spot. That is an apples-to-oranges comparison. If that hand altered your decision making here then you are playing too big.

What size are you re-raising that isn’t a shove? A small re-raise will tag V2 along with his draw which we don’t really want, so I can’t really imagining raising to $400 and leaving a lol $300 behind. Also, if V1 is folding worse hands like this to a re-raise, is it really worth it?

I do agree I’m not used to stacking off $700 with 1p hands.

You don’t think a flush draw putting $400 into a pot on the flop that was only $160 to start is a good outcome?

Just because his turn call off of $235 to win $1400 is “+EV” doesn’t mean he didn’t play the streets prior horrendously and incinerate chips.

Ehhh.. at this point, he’s not putting $400 into $160, he’s putting $170 into $1020 (if V1 folds) or $1190 (if V1 calls) considering I 3b flop to $400.

Plus he has implied odds to win my remaining money because even if a spade rolls off, I cannot fold.

Why exactly do you want to 3b flop if we’re confident that V1 will throw away Q9o?

He’s still putting $400 in dude. Just because he’s a moron and called $200 after a bet -> call when the PFR is uncapped and the action is still open doesn’t mean he’s owning you if he’s getting priced in to call another $200 more. And if he hits and x you can x back and realize your equity.

Also - I never said anything about V1 folding. Is he folding KQ? QJ? KJ?