2/2 NL - Ocean's 11 in San Diego

Hero ($170) is in BB with 78spades
Six players limp - pot is $14 preflop

Flop: Js 6h 9s

Villain 1 in SB, loose aggressive, a little bit of strange donk in sb, leads $8
Hero, sensing weak lead, and seeing some big stacks behind, calls
Villain 2 in cutoff, weak amateur unsophisticated type, raises to $30 and has hero covered.. everyone else, including villain 1, fold..

Pot is $60 - Hero...??

Shove.

piles it in. could go to like 70 and ship turn I guess also

Since V2 is "weak amateur unsophisticated type" I would call the bet. It's a $22 bet to win a $60 pot with 15 outs.

Knowing the O11 2/2 game, I would completely expect V2 to have raised preflop if he had a QT, AsKs, AsQs, etc. The only thing that would potentially beat you would be something like an AsXs or a T8o which is probably in V2's limping range. Villain's reaction to a call/raise or a call/shove here might be to fold, and that would be a shame against a weak passive player in this spot. If you complete your draw, you're playing for stacks, if not you can fold, since there is little to no FE against the guys who play this game at O11.

Hope you at least had some carne asada nachos....

Flat, villain has to dodge the whole deck OTT.

No no no no no. We are oop. Villain is likely to shutdown on all turns. How do we get the rest of our stack in if we just call? Calling here is terrible.

Get the money in. You're lightning equity on fire by calling OOP here.

I'll go for flat, too. Villain is unsophisticated and is equally likely to stack off when we make our hand.

No reason to risk our money when villain is unlikely folding regardless.

Except that against these players (weak passive) they *will* fold (even though he's committed in the theoretical sense) when pushed too hard, and as the post above says, they will stack off with a made hand anyways. There is no FE in the game that OP is playing.

Last night in a casino close to this one, I had an OOP passive donk call my $25 PFR and then fold with $6 left behind when I cbet the flop. Go figure.

I guess it comes down to what a weak amateur is. Some weak amateurs can easily fold any non nut hand if you make it 170 to go I imagine. Others might hang onto jx for dear life. Either way we have massive equity and I want to get as much in there as possible.

I like raising to 70 and shoving turn. I think it accomplishes;

1. Him calling. He is probably not folding with only 40 extra to call, assuming hes a weak unsophisticated player.

2. Him shoving, the money was going in anyway.

3. Shoving any turn gives you 40 dollars extra if he decides to fold to the last 90 dollars. I see people call small reraises only to fold to +-1/2 pot sized shove on next street all the time at 1/2

Correct me if wrong

My instant feel was to shove but after reading this I like this line a little better. More chance for villain to call, assuming thats what we want.

I like this line.

Assuming Villain is not likely reraising draws I like this line.

If he is capable of doing this with a NFD draw I kind of like shoving since it might fold out these hands which render our flush outs dead to 1 but still get value from 2p or pocket 6s and maybe AJ.

So easy allin. Remember what you are attempting to accomplish with your bets etc.

For all those saying flat OOP...
State your objective.
State villains range and our objective vs the different parts of the range

That gives your answer and since you have an answer, i want to work backwards and see how you arrived at it.



Note: Almost anytime in poker when HU, if you give up initiative you become the villains bitch. (or you intentionally bluff catch) You flat here and thus you ask villain to please allow you to hit your hand. You ask villain on turn please dont bet so much so you once again can make your hand. You allow villain to bluff you sometimes since taking your line creates us to chk fold river when miss. And this sounds like a good gameplan? Could villain ever fold a better hand if you shove? Could villain ever fold a better hand if you check call? Put some thought into your hands.

() I fully expect Villain to have a Jx for TP
() There is no FE in this game against these players at this casino. A call gives me proper pot odds to continue. An AI results in either a call against my draw or a fold
() My call usually results in a ck ck turn for a free card against these player types
() If I miss, then my investment was a flop bet and not a stack

+1

Raise the initial donk bet. Sizing is brutal now as played, and our hand is obvious now but I still shove.

I want to see all the cards here with my huge draw and I think flat, raise, and shove are all plausible lines here. Flat is ok if I think I will get paid off if I hit here and if I miss I won't have to call big turn bet oop. Raise might get a fold which isn't terrible and sets me up for a turn shove where I have some equity as well as FE. Shove gets me a decent shot at a fold or if I get called I am probably a favorite against his range, He probably has a lot of top pair here, I am not as happy to see 2 pair or a set. I probably raise here cause I might get a fold or some more money then a fold afterwards or I hit my hand.

I find it difficult not to put all my chips in the middle at this spot with your hand. If you flat then miss then what u going to do. Dont think you will get a penny more out of these players once/if the 3rd spade hits. Read the title of your post again ie huge draw

The problem with this line is that the point at which we want him to call is NOW, not after the turn bricks.

We're about a 50-55% favorite against his likely range OTF. After a brick turn we're about a 2-1 underdog against that same range. Thus, if we don't hit, we won't want him to call, but we'll have priced it to make it much easier for him to call.

And don't forget - just because stacks go in OTT doesn't mean we're winning them, on the off chance we're against a villain who was creative enough to raise his NFD.

We have an excellent chance to win a pot 3/8 our stack size NOW with the worst hand if Villain folds, or play for stacks as a favorite if he calls. Why would we pass that opportunity up?