Well villians description is kinda vague, but this is definitely an interesting spot. Most of the time I would just fold since playing your hand for value in this spot (calling all streets) Imo is pretty bad. Most good players have a pretty capped range utg, and you have to ask yourself why did he c/r flop? He probably doesn't like the fact that he has 3 players left to act behind him knowing anyone can float him with a wide range of hands. As deep as we are, the only time I will continue in this hand are those rare times when I am feeling really hood and think I can get villian off AA (the top of his range). Then I would just flat his raise, do a ~2.5x turn raise and cram the river. I just can't see myself calling down turn and river bets with JJ here, sure you may be good, and he may shut down but it's just not worth it. I know some player will do it with a4/a5 or even 99, I just think it's better to cut your losses. As for pre, I think 3betting is pretty bad, villian is never folding and you aren't calling a 4bet. You have 2 fish in the hand also and in position it doesn't get much better than that.

Edit- Just read turn river, my stack is def not getting it in on this board I fold turn if I didn't already The way villian played the hand makes me believe he did not have a very good hand pre!

If river is a Q, does it mean we call?

FWIW, is his range really that capped? Four-handed with fish in the blinds, 45 (suited anyway) seems in play.

1. Fold turn, play against fish next hand.
Or-
2. Call turn. Call river (how many hands in his range does the ace improve?)

I think we are reading different threads, in this one the blinds fold and I can only assume we are 9-10 handed.

TimeBomb, you're supposed to be trolling me on strategy, not reading comprehension (though that often works as well).

Ahh thanks I read original post where it says both blinds fold. This makes a pretty big difference to where JJ has a lot of value and could call down on blanker boards, but I still find a fold but it is MUCH closer. Anyway no one has ever called me a troll before, probably the nicest thing anyone has to me in at least a week!

Firstly, what hands are we 3balling pre 4 handed 400bb eff if not JJ? Secondly, how thinly is villain capable of valuebetting the river?

If this hand was HU, checking flop is sooooooooo standard whether you're 100bbs deep or 400bbs deep; and whether or not you have JJ or 89ss is irrelevant.

As played I just fold here a lot. WIthout a read on whether he thinks about his perceived range and what you might think about it, this hand is too difficult to navigate.

I weirdly feel like he flopped the nuts, or at least a set. .. I don't like his line regardless. Most guys won't be betting the turn with an overpair and by betting without a 5 he's just asking to get owned if you do have a 5 or decide to put pressure on him.

With that said a set makes the most sense as he might be trying to get value out if a hand like yours. I really don't mind a river shove though because I think he'd have a tough tough time calling with even a set.

The other day I (incorrectly) stated that no one ever does this with aces...followed that evening by a competent /female/ reg doing this precise line at 2/5/10 NL with aces versus a regfish. I pointed the awkwardness of the line to her (in my own manner of heckling her for C/R the flop). And, she said, "it's what girls do. We trap you."

Is V1 male?

It feels a lot like small s/c to me for some reason, maybe 4/6 or 5/6. I'd fold turn, and as played fold river b/c if he's c/r the flop with air he's more often than not continuing turn, so that A hits that range as well. Infact as I've written this I've convinced myself he has 4/6. Oh how'd the rest of the hand go btw?

Are u really giving up after you check raise with nothing and get called? I'm not saying villain doesn't have anything this hand, but personally I rarely don't bet the turn after I check raise because it makes it so easy for villains who call one time. Plus if they do call it makes the pot more worth taking down on the turn.

Confused. Where are the fish positioned relative to you and villain? Were they in the blinds and you wanted them in (which makes sense no reason to isolate utg raiser) or did they call and then you called (makes less sense, although I dont mind mixing it up with JJ??? If they both are fish and already called a raise I'd want to narrow down the field to maybe heads-up if possible. JJ doesnt play well against 3 player on any flop that doesnt have a J i dont think.. Wouldn't have been in this tought spot but you didn't ask my opinion about your preflop play so I'll stop talking about it now lol...

i like a flat here on the flop as well for reasons others have stated. I'm not sure he is c/ring too many made hands on this board (sets straights AA KK). IF His utg range is wide he could have played any suited A-4,A-5 has 604, 6-5, 6-7, 6-8 something like that if he raises after the two fish fold or maybe one folds and he is squeezing out the other. I could be wrong and he has AA of course (seems like what he is trying to represent) If blinds are in between you two then i tend to think there is a better chance he has it because he thinks 3 people have a chance to bet if checked to as opposed to just you or you and one fish behind him..

ANyways call Evaluate turn, although I think another decent bet should be called on most turns I don't mind a fold if you think he is betting the river every time regardless of your hand because we have almost no equity when behind and only 2 cards improve out hand. This is basically going to be a situation where you have to go with your read, if you have none I think you might be too deep to call the turn drawing dead and at his mercy. there is zero rivers he would have to shut down on as well in order to make his line look credibly (since he could have anything a straight or set in which case he would bet one card straight rivers and paired boards pretty easily)

I have been seeing more of this information/protection c/r on the flop against the button (usually the button is the raiser tho lol which makes this spot diff obv.) Im starting to think it would be more standard to call flop call turn evaluate river now that I'm thinking about it more and more and rambling lol. If he is a very good player we need to worry about being beat for sure and we are too deep to stack off but along those same line a comp player knows just about what you can have here and most likely won't try to blow off an overpair by turning a pair into a bluff on the river.

if he is the type to shut down on the turn with these hands then it makes a turn fold a lot easier. if he is betting all 3sts everytime you might as well fold the flop. 3bet folding or 5bet jaming the flop would be awful I think. Your basically negating your positional advantage as well as turning almost the top of your range into a bluff by reraising.

I am not one to information raise but i do like a raise for protection and I don't see a reason to protect here. The information raise can be helpful to some newer player specially if you are planning to go to the river with it. So the play would be a small 3bet intending to fold to a raise and checking back every turn to get to a cheaper showdown... i like to think i can just call and get information on the turn by using my reading skills and positions and you seem to be an advanced player so I'm not sure how much that play would be helpful to you. I would like to know what you ended up doing. And what everyone would do on the turn after we peel the flop if fired into again??? Let's say decent 3/4 pot bet....

Basically it is such an opponent based spot that we could never make the perfect decision on paper I dont think. How active is he UTG pre? When you say he does weird things does that include check raising often when he is the preflop raiser or even against the preflop raiser? Or raising the flop with a wide range in various situations in or out of position?? If he's not the type to check raise often or isnt too tricky it looks like he has a set more often then AA or nothing really..

Usually players that make this play are habitual check raisers (which means he has a wide range and we should call atleast twice) or very good players in which case he know his hand is good or knows we cant call 3 sts with one pair(out most likely holding) meaning we might as well fold the flop or hang on and call off our stack if need be hahaha hard to make this decision on the flop so if its that type of player most of the time we should decide on the turn if we are calling river or not if not fold turn... Folding turn might be the worst option if he is a good player since rarely will they check here with any type of equity so peeling flot and hoping for shutdown is ambitious. So many different variables missing from this post it's impossible to answer. Def very interesting spot to think about however.. good post.

I'd call simply because if I look back at my own play I think I'd have air (ace high..) a lot more often than over pairs.

Actually playing an OP like this would really depend on stack sizes imo.