Shorn- It is a non static combination of all of it.

-I want to maximize my EV right there with a 4bet vs his range that is presumed inferior in equity to our hand.

-I want to minimize more room to maneuver for my opponent who I deem to be a very good player and hold minimal to no to maybe even a slightly disadvantageous edge against.

-I want to elicit a 4bet call from said opponent with the same range he was 3betting with.

-I want to create a 4betting range that consists of all hands (i.e, merging this range) for the times I do go to showdown and can advertise such balance.

-I want to simply protect this hand from the multitude of flops that will ultimately bury me/slow me down/make me make mistakes (this goes more so for when my opponent is a good player as the worse player he is, the more likely I am to let him hang himself instead of me).

-I want initiative in this hand because with it I will probably control at least 1 betting round where my opponent concedes action to me. Playing this deep that can play a huge roll in protecting my stack in many marginal cases.

-I want to protect myself from getting bullied in a shorthanded game where 3bets will become the norm and consistently flatting them will be a losing proposition.

-I want my opponent to feel the pressure of playing OOP with a bloated pot against what is perceived to be a good hand (in this case we have one), since we all know how that feel....hint: it ain't fun.

Thanks for the respectful comments. I enjoy your posts as well.

Don't know what uNl is. Don't know why it's crap.

Good post, though.

edit: post got deleted apparently.

it was a hilarious joke, fds, and its a ****in travesty it was deleted.

cool story, bro

Really great stuff and a lot of it are things that I need to work on. Too many times I just make the default play which gives too much information and comfort to those playing against me (and hence costs me $$). This is a great example of how playing deep not only requires to to protect your stack at times, but alos allows you room to maneuver opponents into uncomfortable territory while increasing your EV. I love that.

One remainign question on the above...you said you want to create a 4-betting range that consists of all hands, but then you say "(i.e., merge this range)". To make sure I understand, your goal here is to (in villain's eyes) keep that range less polarized so he makes worse decisions on his 5-betting choices, right? The wider you can make him 5-bet thinking your 4-bet range is wider (when in actuality it isn't that much wider), the more profitably you can call that range. Just want to make sure I understand that concept.

Thanks. I think given all the recent comments and some threads here, we have turned the corner towards a healthier, strategy based forum which is really great.

Shorn

theoretically, the wider your 4bet range, then the wider villain's 5bet range. But that's just theory, and in play most people are not balanced in these spots, especially with these stacks. I think people have a super wide 3bet range and a very small and polarized 5bet range, which is why I prefer flatting the 3bet. Jloc made a lot of good points, but I think some of it is theory and a lot of players are not that good.

edit: do people disagree given stacks that people generally have small and polarized 5-bet ranges when 300bb deep. Aside from AK (which I don't believe 5-bets 100%), what worse hand than JJ is 5-betting for value?

And if people accept that premise as accurate for game play (not theory), then wouldn't flatting be better against a wide 3betting range because 4bet-folding is just bad.

Shorn- Our opponent doesn't necessarily have to make worse decisions on his 5betting range to make improper adjustments to me. In fact, the real goal would be for him to make improper calls to my 4bet range now that he perceives it to be light (it won't be).

As said, I probably 4bet less than most which means I face less 5bets. I choose this style because I prefer to allow for more postflop play. This does not mean that I can't/won't adapt to my surroundings. If I found myself in a very aggressive shorthanded game with skilled opponents then I would be forced to mix it up more preflop than I am accustomed to and as such, my 4bet range would in fact be wider and my goals may sway more to having him call lighter. But in actuality, once you get to 5bets preflop, unless you are playing extremely deep, there really isn't an issue of wanting to widen ones 5bet calling range since one does not exist. By that point, both parties have made up their mind in how they want to proceed (usually get it in).

As mentioned the 5bet is typically AA/KK so how much of a disaster would it be to have to fold JJ out preflop to a 5bet if that's the prospective range you face? I guess if you were playing extremely deep and you felt your opponent would stack off with just an overpair than you can justify wanting to not get shut out of the pot in order to setmine but that seems both thin and rare. It wouldn't be the end of the world to have to dump JJ in that scenario.

As I see it, 4bet folding becomes bad if your opponents 5bet range becomes wider, but as said, not only is that rare for live players to get to that point (they looove to get trappy which often ends the betting on a given round before it reaches the coveted 5bet), but also that range is usually so well defined and the only way to un-define it (as we attempt to un-define our 4bet range here) is to get there with some sort of frequency that allows for such changes....and we already said that we rarely get there...