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10/20: Bluff in 3bet pot 10/20: Bluff in 3bet pot

01-12-2012 , 07:42 AM
Villain is somewhat LAG and has 3bet a couple times but none to SD. MP opens, I flat T9 in SB 3.3k deep effective. BB 3bets to 340, MP calls, I call.

Flop K44
flop checks through

Turn 7 pot $1020
Hero bets $620, BB calls, MP folds

River A pot $2260
Hero bets $1300, (plan is to bet only diamonds and clubs)
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01-12-2012 , 08:15 AM
Line seems good but with diamonds you'd probably bomb the river, right? I also think there's some good merit to leading flop.
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01-12-2012 , 12:35 PM
I like it if his 3betting range is a lot wider than QQ, KK, AA, AK.
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01-12-2012 , 01:17 PM
I don't like bluffing a river diamond scare card. Our river value range is very narrow: diamonds flush/quads (LAG Villain probably assumes that we do not have AK/KK/AA in our range based off PF action, and he probably assumes that we do not have 4x in our range either). The Ad reduces the number of perceived diamond flushes in our range to Villain because Villain probably expects us to have more Axs than SCs/SGs in our range.

Now that you missed everything, just give up the river.
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01-12-2012 , 01:47 PM
I don't get why you checked the flop, hes lag and you expect him to slowplay kk? Otherwise your line seems fine, he probably folds his pps unless hes a station or has seen you bluff.
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01-12-2012 , 02:08 PM
I think preflop call is a leak this deep.
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01-12-2012 , 02:18 PM
Tough sell repping a backdoor flush in a 3 bet pot, especially with the A out there.
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01-12-2012 , 02:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeBomb
I don't get why you checked the flop, hes lag and you expect him to slowplay kk? Otherwise your line seems fine, he probably folds his pps unless hes a station or has seen you bluff.
OP is oop in the sb

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmix85
I think preflop call is a leak this deep.
+1. If bb is squeeze happy, you shouldn't call the first time around unless MP is a world class fish. should also fold to 3bet
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01-12-2012 , 03:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmix85
I think preflop call is a leak this deep.
Quote:
+1. If bb is squeeze happy, you shouldn't call the first time around unless MP is a world class fish. should also fold to 3bet
Keep in mind this is live FR so even if villain 3bets a balanced range of lets say TT+,AK,and 85s,J7s,86o for example, he is still only 3betting 6% of the time.

But I am curious to whether people call this hand even if there was a guaranteed no squeeze? Are you going to turn a profit 150bb deep oop with T9s 78s 67s etc in a single raised pot?

Now once 3bet closing action, if we knew villain had AK,QQ+ would you call? and only prefer a fold because some of his range is undefined?
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01-12-2012 , 03:58 PM
too polarized you either have dd flush or absolutely nothing.

without history, no one vbets Kx here so gg, yeah expect to get looked up here a ton by anyone who can handread.
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01-12-2012 , 04:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HustlerLA
Keep in mind this is live FR so even if villain 3bets a balanced range of lets say TT+,AK,and 85s,J7s,86o for example, he is still only 3betting 6% of the time.

But I am curious to whether people call this hand even if there was a guaranteed no squeeze? Are you going to turn a profit 150bb deep oop with T9s 78s 67s etc in a single raised pot?

Now once 3bet closing action, if we knew villain had AK,QQ+ would you call? and only prefer a fold because some of his range is undefined?
I was trying to say that the call of the 3bet is a leak. The initial call can be questioned as well but I personally think it is fine.

I would call the 3-bet if our opponent has a range of AK QQ+ but since you described him as being a lag his range is clearly wider. I do not think calling a 3 bet out of position will be profitable at this stack depth when our opponent has a balanced 3 betting range.
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01-12-2012 , 10:01 PM
It is pretty ridiculous to criticize the PF call of the 3bet. Hero can even check dark profitably to a LAG Villain who is likely to c-bet often, so OOP is not a disadvantage. As far as pot odds go, I am guessing that the original raiser raised about $70 before calling $270 more. Therefore, Hero is getting almost 3:1 immediate pot odds to call with T9s.

Assuming that Hero is competent, I do not mind this call. In live poker, most Villains are pretty horrible, so it is OK for us to peel a little lightly PF unless we happen to respect Villain's game (Hero did not specify anything more than LAG Villain, so I am assuming that Villain is your typical live LAG who is probably pretty mediocre at poker against your typical 2+2er).

Again, I think the river bluff is bad because we have such a narrow value range. If it happens to work here, it will only work because Villain is a bad hand-reader.
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01-13-2012 , 02:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoola
It is pretty ridiculous to criticize the PF call of the 3bet. Hero can even check dark profitably to a LAG Villain.
Phil Helmuth's secret 2+2 account?
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01-13-2012 , 02:31 AM
preflop is terrible especially since villan is 3b here wide.....gl showing profit with this one
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01-13-2012 , 05:14 AM
I dunno man you're repping ridiculously narrow otr here. Don't think I like this.
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01-13-2012 , 06:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AAismyfriend
I dunno man you're repping ridiculously narrow otr here. Don't think I like this.
I agree I am repping narrow however I did call a 3bet oop and my image is fairly tight. I did just lead into both on turn albeit flop checked through. Theres only 2 significant draws on turn (2 FDs) so if I had one of those I have a flush on river half the time at least given I dont always barell river when missed. And most importantly I'm not trying to fold out AK, moreso JJ, QQ. His hand looks more like some SD value given no cbet and he probably doesnt 3bet a lot of KX hands other than AK and K-rag occasionally. River further reduces AK combos.

Not claiming its awesome just stating my reasoning.
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01-13-2012 , 10:49 PM
Im la's friendliest and i do not approve of this line. (most of the reasons have already been given)
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01-15-2012 , 12:59 AM
OP,

Could you give a better description of Villain? Is he a solid hand-reader or not?

I definitely think it is a bad bluff against a thinking hand-reader. But if he is not, then it is not a bad spot to bluff against someone who is mostly a level one thinker.
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01-15-2012 , 01:33 AM
Too narrow on river. I dont care for the whole hand really.
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