V1 and I battled heads up all day and I was locked in on him and pretty much annihilated him by folding huge hands face up when I knew I got ****ed and then correctly calling huge river bets with J-high and ****. He has a lot of timing/hand movement/facial tells and some really strong tendencies, especially when he's tilting (he's one of the very few people I try to tilt at the table because it's so worth it on so many levels )... He's also been beating poker for 27 years (he tells me this often) and many a young punk have gotten whacked by him heads up--> he has heart and is a good reader and loves short-handed. Anyways, he's stuck about 20 today and he's playing bipolar (aggro af but not really committing all the way to his lines/reps and ultimately shutting down a lot).

V2 just came over from 5-10 to double up his short-stack I presume...

Hero played very well all day (pats himself on back) but has lost his edge due to fatigue. He's about to leave after spewing off like 7k for no good reason (sometimes you can't stop yourself, like you tell yourself not to spew after each hand and then boom you are 4-betting K4o against a guy who just ain't folding ).

Hero (covers) completes the 40 from the sb with A9.
V2 (900) completes from the bb.
V1 (8kish) makes it 400 more (this sizing doesn't seem super strong).
Hero calls.
V2 tells the dealer he knew he was an unlucky dealer () and ultimately ships.
V1 snap slides out a tower of white- it's now 2940 total, with ~5k behind.
Hero?

I'd raise pre the first time and fold very fast now.

Are you sure that alcohol is the only drug you have been consuming?

I never claimed that lol. Why tho? What are you thinking?

I think the limp is fine and I can't imagine why you want to continue now. You're behind even a loose range. I also don't understand why you think the 10bb raise looks weak, but that's your read. You really need to somehow eliminate the top 5% of preflop hands from his range (via sizing or facial tells) in order for this not to be a fold, and that **** is nowhere near my wheelhouse so I'll leave you at that.

Good post. Almost no one "snap" does anything (besides call an all in) with a huge hand in live poker. It's the most reliable tell there is. Also 11x in position 3-handed (after 2 completes) seems like it really wants folds in general, and especially from this guy. Not 100% though obv.

well, you are underrepped. but why is V1 trying to iso V2 here? does he need you to fold your 400 just so he can have the correct odds to call V2?

and if you do call, and the flop comes out 553, is this an autocall when he ships because the top of his range is something like KQo?

fold > shove >>>>>>>>>>> call. something like that.

fold and go home

Well he can't fold no matter what obv the price is too insane. Seems like he wants me out of the pot, idk.

Your hand is really bad against a decent range, so there are a couple of questions you have to answer if you want to continue. I don't mind ruling out really strong hands JJ+, although I do think it's possible that a tilting or drunk V could act immediately with these hands, especially if he just throws out a random stack without counting it. In fact, in this particular case, I would take that to lean more on the strong side. In any case, I am definitely not ruling out AJ+ here.

Assuming he's definitely weak here, just how weak is he? He has to be really light for continuing to be correct, because you're going to be way behind V2 in the main pot. Like, in the best case scenario where V1 is doing this with 30% of hands, but never JJ+ you're 55% for the side pot, but it's not even that profitable, because you're reasonably like 20% in the main pot. I don't think V1 is weak enough for you to be 55% in the side (raising hands like J9o,Q7s,etc.) so I fold.

Feels like hand was butchered at every decision point imo

I am thinking:
1. It has to be fairly uncommon for us to have 3 decisions before the flop and disagree on all 3 despite different play styles.
2. I am not going to elaborate my thought process much more on a public forum even though you request it. This seems to be in line with how you feel in general about posting strat from the other thread. I know you would/will say this spot is so unique that it won't come up again anyway but truth is the concepts behind it flare up pretty often.

I don't get hown you all can go on 2p2 every day and be like I don't wanna post strat
Most of what gets posted in terms of strat isn't very useful anyway since there is software that is better than any human nlhe player anyway
If people wanna get better there are ample resources available to them, so guarding your strategy closely here doesn't make much of a difference anyway

wow..you're sicker than I thought!

So surf doc - guessing at the three choices?

Leaving pre - not a bad one if you are tired and spewing, specially if the new guy is sitting short. Not worth screwing around if the new guy is short.

In the hand - limping vs raising - probably consider raising in this spot if I play it at all - shorty won't be just calling

As played, I'd assume the shorty is doing this with something like a reasonable ace or a mid pocket pair (or better of course).

And V-2 is re-raising that with no FE against V1. So I ran a few scenarios and if any of them are close you are a 60-40 dog or so against V2's range.

but you can always get lucky

You guys are being too cookie cutter imo. There are times (wrt game flow and positions) to have open limping ranges- especially sh. Constantly adjusting and keeping your opponents off balance are vital components of sh play (obv). Not being overexposed/overplaying oop is vital no matter how many people are at the table. So... A9 suited is a good hand to limp/underrep in this spot SOMETIMES/it does great against the ranges that check back or squeeze and it has plenty of rio oop as an overrep/with initiative. Renton agrees the limp is fine guys, btw.

When it's 400 more, both flatting or back raising are OK imo. But in this state (of V1) we have no fold equity so I flatted--> this is the only part of the hand where I think I may have gone with the worse option/I was just too tired to really think over a relatively small decision- and you gotta play fast against this dude. Either way, flatting doesn't seem horrific...

Not saying folding isn't best after it's 2940, but not even thinking about continuing is lazy af imo/these are the bis spots in poker where people just light equity on fire by never thinking things all the way through/disregarding reads/tells.

Well we are not there for the reads and tells - if you think you have a good chance against V2's range fine with playing on. So I guess the question now is come back over the top or just call

V2 and his range are all but insignificant IMO. I'd be basically flipping getting a million:1.

Ok, so hypothetically it's not a fold for 2500 more. Flat or ship?

How do you know we don't agree on the 3rd decision lol? You open raise obv the first time, but do you fold or back raise the 2nd time it comes around?

(No strat is fine- even though u r right I think this is too specific a spot to matter)

if folding is not an option, it is an easy ship. You can't fold if you flop an ace, and if he doesn't have an ace, it will kill your action, so obviously it is a ship.

Even if he can't have premiums you still will run into AJ 99 type stuff a lot. It's a thin edge to push and the stakes are high if you're wrong about your read. This is also the type of hand that is bad for morale if it doesn't go your way. You're paying quite an emotional/psychological toll for an EV of like 1.5bb. I know you're a stone cold pro but it applies to even the most stoic among us.

Because you wouldn't have posted the hand if you folded.

If he made it like 700 pre then yeah I'd agree with you that he pretty much can't have a good hand but 400 isn't really that ridiculous for him to do with something like AK. The snap raise tell after the shortstack shoves definitely weakens his range a bit but not by nearly enough/I don't think those two tells combined are nearly enough to overcome how our hand just isn't strong enough to get it in.

I think something like 44 is a little more interesting to have in this spot, that one is a more reasonable debate/could go either way.

That's a dis. I posted it because it was a pretty crazy spot imo. It woke me up. I had to think about it for a while (which kills any chance that I possibly fold out better if I ship) which maybe should have swayed me to folding, but yeah, I went all-in eventually.

11x in position 3-handed after 2 completes is not strong unless there is leveling going on/some recent 11x history. There wasn't.

I would have liked 44 less.