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1/3NL KQss on dry flop 1/3NL KQss on dry flop

03-09-2015 , 05:49 PM
Villian is pretty transparent with bet sizes and generally small bets are weak and big bets are strong. Villain has about $350

Hero has been playing a bit out of line and making some 3bets pre that are probably not good for low stakes. EX - UTG raises $7 or 2.3x - one caller - Hero 3bets to $30 with A2 and takes it down pre. Hero has shown 1 bluff but has been at the table for 4 hours and most of the players that he showed racked up and moved off so I don't think that maters much any more. Hero has $600

Villian is Mid position +1 and makes it $10.
2 callers
Hero is on the BTN with KQ and thinks about 3betting but just calls.

Pot is $40~

55Q all rainbow

check
check
Villain bets $15
Hero raises to $35 (I raise because $15 is really weak and I want to build the pot for future streets. I also have been aggressive so I don't think my raise will get a lot of respect on a board this dry)
fold
fold
Villain calls.

Turn is a 4

Pot is $110~

Villian donks out $70 extremely fast with out even thinking
Hero?

I think if I call here I pretty much have to call all rivers except for an ace. It's very possible villain has AQ but could also have a weaker Q. I highly doubt he has a 5 but he could have a hand like A5s but what puzzled me was how fast he bet and the amount. In other hands when he had a huge hand he bet really big like this. It was a tough spot and I wasn't sure if I should call or wait for a better spot vs this player.
1/3NL KQss on dry flop Quote
03-09-2015 , 05:55 PM
This seems like a fold to me. Villain is acting unusual, betting big, and has a pattern of only betting big with big hands. There's maybe a 10% chance that this is random spew, but the other 90% of the time you're drawing to 2-3 outs.
1/3NL KQss on dry flop Quote
03-09-2015 , 06:00 PM
There are a lot more 5's in my range than his. I'm not sure if he thinks like that and probably doesn't but his bet is very interesting none the less

my hand could also look like 99 or TT trying to see where it is at. pretty tough spot i'm in here lol
1/3NL KQss on dry flop Quote
03-09-2015 , 06:05 PM
Are the callers between us and the raiser? (preflop / postflop action aren't consistent)

I also probably just call preflop cuz I'm passive like that.

I'm not sure why we want to build a pot on the flop for future streets? Is someone going to call us down in a hugenormous pot with a worse hand? How cbetty in multiway flops is the Villain? Would he weakly cbet JJ here? Would Villain open a hand we dominate (like QJ)? Against a lot of opponents, I would actually just fold the flop as this weak bet is AA/KK/AQ (and sometimes QQ although typically people slowplay this) just lightly betting the flop just in case someone has 5x. I could maybe get behind a call if any of the questions about the Villain are answered a certain way, but I'm certainly not looking to build a pot.

Villain raised preflop, cbet into the world, called a flop raise (albeit from aggro us), and then donked the turn. This is pretty strong, imo. I'm folding (but I was maybe even folding the flop).

GlikestofoldG
1/3NL KQss on dry flop Quote
03-09-2015 , 07:06 PM
Villains range feels very heavily weighted towards a 5 or better here, especially given your description of him.

The small bet on the flop could initially be seen as a mid pocket pair, so I like a call there. You said he bets small when he is weak, so why are you raising? I understand you have a loose image and you want to take advantage of that, but you want to keep his weak hands in on this board because of how dry it is. If you are ahead, you are way ahead. If you are behind, you are way behind. If he is transparent, he will reveal the strength of his hand later on, you don't really need to raise to find out. Calling also keeps your range wide, but his range will narrow based on his turn action.

As played, fold turn. It totally makes sense for him to have a 5 or better in this spot, and your hand is a bluffcatcher at this point. You have shown a lot of strength and he is still leading into you.

Last edited by Mr.Malice; 03-09-2015 at 07:12 PM.
1/3NL KQss on dry flop Quote
03-09-2015 , 07:14 PM
Raising flop is not good.

Fold turn.
1/3NL KQss on dry flop Quote
03-09-2015 , 07:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djevans
Villian is pretty transparent with bet sizes and generally small bets are weak and big bets are strong
This read would make me lean toward a fold here. Seems like he is worried about you checking back and is trying to set up a big river bet.
1/3NL KQss on dry flop Quote
03-09-2015 , 08:01 PM
On the flop the Villain bet small with supposedly a weak hand. It's a WA/WB situation but we chose to raise, and then on the turn the Villain's hand became really strong is that the story?

I think raising the flop is really bad. I think raising the flop because you want to build a big pot and then folding instead of building a big pot is really bad.

You have a SDV hand. Just call, don't raise, and you don't find yourself building huge pots and then thinking up reasons to fold.
1/3NL KQss on dry flop Quote
03-09-2015 , 08:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djevans
Hero has been playing a bit out of line and making some 3bets pre that are probably not good for low stakes. EX - UTG raises $7 or 2.3x - one caller - Hero 3bets to $30 with A2 and takes it down pre.
Why include this information? you realize having AA, A2 or 27 does not matter since it was folded around and no one saw your hand...
1/3NL KQss on dry flop Quote
03-10-2015 , 06:31 AM
"Villian is pretty transparent with bet sizes and generally small bets are weak and big bets are strong."

My money is on V having turned a set. He called your flop raise because he couldn't put you on a 5 & so you only had a Q to hit your hand with. He thinks you would have raised PF with a pocket pair.

I think everyone else covered what needed to be said. I just wanted to get my money down.
1/3NL KQss on dry flop Quote
03-10-2015 , 06:39 AM
the fact that you're worried now shows that the flop raise was bad. In theory you raised for value, meaning you thought range villain continues with is worse. Villain continued and made a somewhat normal turn bet. His range shouldn't be much different than it was at the point you decided to raise for value.
1/3NL KQss on dry flop Quote
03-10-2015 , 02:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtagliaf
the fact that you're worried now shows that the flop raise was bad. In theory you raised for value, meaning you thought range villain continues with is worse. Villain continued and made a somewhat normal turn bet. His range shouldn't be much different than it was at the point you decided to raise for value.
Help me out here please - what do you mean by somewhat normal turn bet?
V made a weak bet on the flop & then bet ~3/4 on the turn. Wouldn't that be about right for someone who thought he had a strong hand?
1/3NL KQss on dry flop Quote
03-10-2015 , 02:32 PM
A straightforward player calling your flop raise then betting the turn is super strong. He could be bluffing and suspect you wouldn't raise if you had a 5. A very quick bet typically means a bluff. Seems like a fold based on your read, but I would watch this villain more closely.

Why raise the flop if you suspect him to be weak? You don't need to protect against any draws and you have the equivalent of TPGK. Just call. There are still 2 players in the hand would could have slowplayed with a 5 as well.
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03-10-2015 , 03:22 PM
If you think he is capable of this with w jq or TT ten call. If you think he is butted fold

No reads I call
1/3NL KQss on dry flop Quote
03-10-2015 , 03:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matzah_ball
Raising flop is not good.

Fold turn.
This. If villain is weak, why raise? He's folding worse and only continuing with better.
1/3NL KQss on dry flop Quote
03-10-2015 , 03:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZuneIt
Help me out here please - what do you mean by somewhat normal turn bet?
V made a weak bet on the flop & then bet ~3/4 on the turn. Wouldn't that be about right for someone who thought he had a strong hand?
if you want to change your read based on this size of the turn bet, then I guess that's ok - that's a piece of new information we have since our checkraise.
1/3NL KQss on dry flop Quote
03-10-2015 , 07:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtagliaf
the fact that you're worried now shows that the flop raise was bad. In theory you raised for value, meaning you thought range villain continues with is worse. Villain continued and made a somewhat normal turn bet. His range shouldn't be much different than it was at the point you decided to raise for value.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zuneit
Help me out here please - what do you mean by somewhat normal turn bet?
V made a weak bet on the flop & then bet ~3/4 on the turn. Wouldn't that be about right for someone who thought he had a strong hand?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtagliaf
if you want to change your read based on this size of the turn bet, then I guess that's ok - that's a piece of new information we have since our checkraise.
I was basing it on OP's description of V: "Villian is pretty transparent with bet sizes and generally small bets are weak and big bets are strong."

I thought a 3/4 pot size bet on the turn, vs. a 37.5% PS bet on the flop signified strength, in V's mind anyways.

I have to conclude [I could easily be wrong]that by V leading out with a $70 bet into a $110 pot, after H c/r the flop...that would indicate strength, no?

Or, could it be some kinda' blocking bet? Thoughts appreciated.
1/3NL KQss on dry flop Quote
03-10-2015 , 07:22 PM
Well I ended up folding turn - but I don't think the flop raise is bad. If I didn't raise the flop I would called every street and if he had a strong hand like I suspect I would of ended up losing more $$$.

I'm surprised villain didn't check the turn. It is very strange that he donked 3/4 pot.

Edit - after I folded he said he had a queen but I find that hard to believe.
1/3NL KQss on dry flop Quote
03-10-2015 , 07:59 PM
Will you continue to play in the bar in the summer of 2016, or opt for going to MGM National Harbor casino?
Ever go to WV or MD Live to play?
1/3NL KQss on dry flop Quote

      
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