Hero is mid-20s Asian kid, unknown to Villain but limited observation might indicate me to have a tighter image in comparison to the table. Sitting with ~$500 (bought in for $300, won a couple of decent pots, dumped a handful of chips on some hands raising pre/check-folding on wet boards MW)

Villain is mid-50s FOB-type Asian recreational player, unknown to Hero but limited observation indicates he doesn't tend to fit the splashy Asian stereotypes, makes decent value bets and appears to have a good sense of where he's at in a hand. Plays semi-tight, has had a near-nut hand in a couple instances where all the money went in but once correctly picked off a medium-sized bluff with bottom pair (he'd folded in similar spots before so I don't necessarily chalk it up to him being stationy, but I could be wrong). Sitting with ~$300 after a few swings up and down. (bought in for $200)

BTN straddles for $6
2 limps
Hero raises to $25 with KsJc (planning to take standard c-bet/value lines vs. OOP limpers postflop - sizing is typical of this club game where many players buy in for $500 and play like it's 2-5NL)
Villain calls $25 in CO
Folds around

POT - $70
FLOP - Kd Js 8d

Hero bets $40
Villain calls $40

POT - $150
TURN - Kd Js 8d 5c

Hero bets $80
Villain calls $80

POT - $310 / Effective stacks: $160
RIVER - Kd Js 8d 5c 2d

Hero ???
(bonus questions: Is there any way to get stacks in on turn? How does our play change with $200 more behind?)

Shove river...


with 200 more behind you could b/f river but i would bet more on turn if you were deeper... prlly getting stacks in here too.

I think the trick in this hand is figuring out the maximum he will call with Kx or a fd and betting that much on each street.

On the flop he'll probably call a psb with both. We may lose value from Jx but if we're getting double value from Kx and fds by betting pot when Jx would only call 1/2 pot then we're more than making up for losing action from Jx. Besides what Jx does he call pf other than AJ? QJs, JTs I suppose.

If we bet pot on this flop then we'll have 205 left and the pot will be 210 ott. That was part of the plan betting pot otf, now we can ship the turn for a reasonable amount. We may lose action from Kx, and even more likely so from a fd, which makes it worth considering betting smaller. I don't know how many fds are in his range. He can have a lot of Axdd which are going to be hard to lay down, especially AQ, AJ, AT, and A5/A3/A4 if he calls with those pf.

I think we should just take the pot, pot line on flop and turn rather than betting something like 1/2 pot 3 streets and giving him odds to draw (esp if he has fd+sd). Since we're blocking pairs, draws become a bigger fraction of his calling range that we get value from

I do not like your turn bet size at all. Make it $110, charge that sucka. When you make mistakes on a street it diminishes our ability to make more clear cut decisions on future streets.

I'd typically raise more preflop in a straddled pot after two limpers. $25 seems a little on the smallish side, but it got the job done (HU), so whatever.

On this super drawy board with a smallish SPR, I'm probably looking to play for stacks by the turn. So I probably pot the flop to set up a PSB shove on the turn.

As played, I'm not sure. We've only got a 1/2 PSB left; can we really fold if we check? And all checking does is allow worse hands to check behind for free. There's still a bunch of worse hands that payoff here (I'm thinking AK/KQ for one). I think I shove.

GcluelessNLnoobG

+1 to flop and turn. Trying to get it in over 3 streets here with your hand on this board is really bad.

What everyone else said about bet-sizing.

As played, this is a very tough spot. In my opinion, this hand comes down to whether you think this particular villain could turn a hand like KQ into a bluff by shoving the river. Probably not, based on your description. In that case, as much as I hate it getting 3:1, I think the play is c/f. If you think he can turn hands into bluffs then, c/c. As tempting as shoving is, he's never calling worse (unless he can talk himself into AK/KQ, but that's pretty unlikely, I think) and he's definitely never folding better.

So probably c/f, unless you give him trickiness credit, in which case c/c.

you seriously want to c/f here getting 3:1.....................

assuming you should never be folding here(shouldn't) you have to shove to get value out of everything except a flush....... he might shove here missing a straight draw(unlikely cause cause he knows you basically are calling with reasonable hands) or A of hearts and a pair... if he has 2 pair/ AK KQ he checks behind and we miss out

c/c is the worst line you can take here...

I actually like your sizing on every street. Yes, I suppose you could get the money in on the turn if you bet pot OTF and pot OTT but why would would want to? Taking that line would probably fold out the majority of his range that you beat. You have a strong hand and you should want to get value from it. The way you bet chunks up your bets and sets up a nice river shove.

The river is pretty bad. Since he did not raise the flop or turn on this dry board, there is almost no chance that he has a set because he would have raised at some point. Therefore, his range is limited to flushes, TP hands and 2 pair OTR. I would check the river. Most villains will not bet TP here since the flush got there and most rec villains are showdown happy and don't bet for value. If he does bet, then I fold.

You really think he's calling with AK/KQ if we shove? What two pair can he have?

I agree. And since I don't think he ever calls with worse, I think c/f is the best of three terrible options.

And steve1127 wins the prize of one internets for getting the correct answer imo, along with RM518 for understanding my bet sizing. Of course Hero actually shoved because Hero sucks at NL texas hold them -- hated c/c because he never bets worse, b/f would just be goddamn silly (unless, expecting villain to never bluff-raise, we can make it look like a cheap bluff that Kx could snap off, hmm...), and c/f seemed at the moment to be way too weak.

Given my estimates of his range as being strong Kx hands and NFDs, I figured my slightly over 1/2pot sizing was small enough to get called by hands as weak as KT or even AJ sometimes, large enough to properly charge NFDs, and giving up a little ground against pair+NFD or FD+SD type hands (which I was fine with since I didn't think they were a big enough part of his range for this to be a huge tragedy).

I actually took this line instead of betting closer to full pot since a lot of the villains at this game (and live in general, in my experience) will see a full PSB as basically bombing the pot, to where their perception of our range is polarized to roughly 2/3 nuts and 1/3 air and they need to be really suspicious or stationy to call down at that point. So, the plan was instead of going pot, pot and hoping he has AK or OESD+FD that he can call down with, to get a little less value from a much wider portion of his range without forcing him to play perfectly by folding nearly 100% of his holdings (9 or less outs/made hands worse than TPTK)

So, my goal was instead of forcing him to tank and flip a coin to decide whether or not I'm bluffing vs. a turn shove, I wanted to get enough in on the flop and turn that so little was left behind on the river he would think, "Well ****, I'm not sure KQ/KT/AJ is good here, but I have to call because there's so much out there" and then collect the monies on any non-diamond river.

Of course the diamond came, and after I got done wiping the vomit off of my shirt, I shipped it on him and he called with AdXd (not 100% sure but I don't think the X was a J, might have been a T or a 9 which means he at best had NFD+gutshot).

I just had an interesting thought about how it might affect the dynamic of the hand if we were forcing villain to make a mistake that he didn't know he was making (vice willingly taking slightly the worst of it), i.e. assuming the Ad from his NFD is a clean top pair out, but I forgot what it was when the cat started clawing my leg because she was hungry. I'll post it if I remember; thanks all for the responses.

Woo-hoo! I've been wanting one of those.

You dont think he can call half pot sized bet with those hands(yes hes unlikely to have 2 pair)? ... description says calls medium sized river bluff with bottom pair. Also description seems to imply havn't seen that many hands from the guy. I just think that folding here is super exploitable in the long run so shove is your best choice. Yeah the "winner" is c/f because it turned out he had the flush but I dont think it's a cut and dry play.

I guess its c/f if its known he has a super tight preflop range... which would put him at sets flushes and AK/QK.

Bleh the more i think the better c/f sounds.