Hero ($950): Late 20's, probably seen as very aggro by rest of the table. Played a lot of big pots so far. Couple of earlier hands for reference:

Three limps, hero raise $17 with J7 on button, all call. Flop J76 checks to me, I overbet $75, SB calls, one fold, CO shoves $400, I call, SB folds, CO has 77, I do not find another J.

Few hands later I have 58 in SB, one limp, MP opens $15, two calls, I call, BB calls. Flop J97 checks around. Turn 6, hero leads $45, BB calls, limper raises to $110 with another $140 behind, folds to me, I shove, BB folds, limper calls with 8T and I find a nice T on river.

Got caught 3b 78o earlier on button when a limper cold called with AJ and didn't have enough behind for me to do anything on K24Qx runout. 3b AA to $75 over a $20 open, guy folded, I did not show. You get the idea.

V ($270): Younger guy can't be older than 25 or 26, sat down and bought in $200 (max buy in is $500), first hand he 3b to $60 over a $15 raise and two calls, original raiser called and then c/f to V's shove on a low flop with AK, V did not show.

On to the hand....

V limps, CO limps, SB completes, hero has 88 in BB and raises to $15, all three call.

Flop ($60): 443

SB checks, hero leads $30, V min-raises to $60, folds back to hero. Action?

Where did V limp from? I'd probably start by going into bluff catcher mode and call.

V is UTG+2

I think there are three things that combine to turn this into a disgusted tight fold. You know very little about villain and have no idea how to read his min raise yet. Your hand is at the bottom of a value range here. The biggest biggest factor is stacks sizes. If you call villain will have about a stack sized bet left on turn. That puts you in a awkward situation, as any further betting is pot committing. Essentially you have to decide now if you want to play for stacks or not, and your hand isn't quite good enough.

Gross. Less than 100bb and a min-raise. probably just fold. The only other option is to raise. Calling is not an option unless you plan to just call down. Or hit an 8.

Pre, $15 seems small over 2 limpers + SB.

If you raise, I'd go $20 at least.

I honestly think checking your BB is better. No point in raising and building a pot oop. Sure you're doing it with what is almost certainly the best pre-flop hand, but you will hate almost every flop without an 8. But yeah, if you gotta raise, $15 is too small.

I'm definitely not folding. You could call getting 5:1 and see a turn.

I think jamming for value would be best though. He's not likely to have 99+ after limp/calling pre, and it's pretty difficult to have 33,44,4x.

55-77 and draws are a big part of his range, and I think he'll call with those.

Preflop: I don't like this raise size. I think that with this many limpers, and raising only 12 more, you're going to get a lot of calls. And have to play a mid pair OOP. I'd check this hand for deception most of the time because while it is probably the best hand right now, it's going to be hard to play post flop OOP. If you do choose to raise, maybe make it 25. That gives you a better chance to just pick up the dead money or play HU. As played, now it's a bloated pot, 4 way action and you're OOP.
OTF, it's a reluctant tight fold unless you're willing to gii. You're probably ahead but if you're opponent has a straight and/or a flush draw, 21 cards are terrible for you (any A,2,5,6 or 7) and the rest of the deck is comprised of over cards, which will slow the action. It's going to be tough to make money here unless you spike an 8. I think folding > gii > calling.
I do think you probably have the best hand right now but winning this pot is unlikely.

PF is fine.

I personally would probably just check my BB, since we're just bloating the pot OOP. Yes we have initiative, but I find myself value-cutting myself post-flop in these situations.

Not sure why people are saying you should raise larger. We don't want to thin the field with 88... if anything 88 is the quintessential multi-way hand.

I think OP is raising PF simply to build a pot. Basically a neutral gamble in my book.

Anyways... I'm not folding post-flop. This seems like a perfect spot to call and play the turn.

Calling should cause villain to play the turn face up. He's not going to barrel us, because MOST of our continuing range on the flop is continuing on the turn. We raised from the BB, which probably looks like a big pair to most LLSNL villains.

So he's not going to try to barrel us off of a big pair.

Just call flop and fold turn if he barrels.

Fold. It will be very very hard to continue OTT and OTR OOP with that flop. Just a crappy spot overall and I can't see any good plan (card) on future streets.

Either that, or just call and evaluate some more :-)

Imho pre is too small if you wish to raise. I'd make it ~20-25.

I can't fold to a min raise here. if I had the feeling that this younger guy would have no problem gii w/ his big draws I'd raise and fade probably. the thing about this hand is the turn being oop. If you call his raise are you checking brick turns? I'd hate to see him get two cards for cheap. can you call then lead turn? I don't usually like that line.

with your image I think I just raise right here honestly. other wise it's a check/call down spot w/ a hand that doesn't love many turns/rivers.

also I think calling lets him dictate the terms entirely which is never cool. if the turns checked to him he can bet all value hands and bluffs/gutters two picture cards, or he can take a free card w/ his draws. depending on sizing he can make it real tough to get to show down regardless.

Kind of a tough little spot, instinct makes you want to call/evaluate but that's likely the worst option. folding seems really weak, yet if we raise and he shoves we aren't loving our hand anymore.

yeah it's a raise, target the 22, 55-77, A2s,A3s, A5s and all the draws 56,67, 52s, clubs. I mean his value range is 45s, A4s and 33, all of which should be discounted some what do to utg+2.

High variance to continue.

We are relying on our history with Villain and our reads.

Minraises in 1/3 are usually strong.

How strong is the question.

Clint Eastwood wants to know, "are we feeling lucky today?"

I rarely feel "lucky" enough to continue.

We cbet and we got challenged.

To me 88 isn't good enough.

JMO.

Your history hands certainly show that we have different styles. J7s crap intentionally creating a bloated multiway pot (albeit in position)? Very loose preflop call OOP with 85s crap? 3betting 8 high? Overall seems just way too aggro with high RIO hands. But I know your overall results have been good, so I guess your way of skinning the cat is getting things done (plus it looks like you sit in a deeper game than I do, which might make a difference).

I would typically just see a flop preflop.

Postflop the SPR is 4 which means stacks can go to go in trivially easy postflop, especially with us OOP. We have a super aggro image, so I'd think I'd be pretty cool with getting them in. 4x seems an unlikely hand, and 33 would probably slowplay with others behind (heck, 4x might even slowplay although they might be a little MUBSy on this board). Lottsa draws. Sorta seems we're behind to a passive JJ-99 or nothing, imo. I'd probably pot+ the flop in order to shove the turn. I'm guessing our small lead was to induce? If so, it worked. With our image and the fact I probably hate most turn cards, I would just shove now.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Well, he certainly built a pot. An SPR 4 pot, OOP, where he'll be facing a commitment decision almost every time on his first action.

GnotafanofpreflopG

Imo you can shove now or call and open shove non club OTT. Check folding a club or an Ace OTT.

We can argue about the merits of raising J7s on the button in a deep game at the Wynn =)

The 58s hand I had a straight with a straight flush redraw on the turn, not 8-high, and it was already second nuts to T8 which seemed unlikely with the flop check around until V raised turn



Results:

Any thoughts about your raise pre? And what about the sizing?

What do you think about just checking from BB?

I raised because I probably have the best hand and people at 1/3 are bad at playing postflop, so it's not that tough to play a mid pair even OOP. Making it more than $20 is just going to result in a bunch of folds usually. Whether it's $15 or 20, when the first person calls they all call so I don't think it matters much unless I make it $25+, which seems too big. IMO 66+ is too strong to just check in BB, plus it sucks when we smash a set and win $15 or 30. I'm usually raising 66+ KJo+ J9s+ from the blinds after a couple limps, depends on stack sizes, players, etc.

But with smaller stacks, don't you find yourself in stack committing decisions on the flop in multiway pots like all the time with meh-ish hands, plus little postflop FE?

Gmeh?G

I adjust my raise sizing based on stack sizes and observed tendencies of the other players. If stacks were less than $200 I'm probably raising a little more to get it in on favorable boards with low SPR. It always depends, can't really say much more than that without a specific example.

Without looking at results, I feel like we're in a really ****ty spot OOP against an unknown. This feels like a slightly ahead/way behind spot. I fold and wait for a better spot.

Without any kind of read on the villain, it is really hard to construct a range of hands he might do this with. A default range seems heavy with hands that beat us or have very good equity against us.

*edit*

After seeing results, I still have no idea what min-raising accomplishes for him but I did fail to take into account our image. Still not a huge fan of shoving into a relative unknown but if people are willing to call with worse, it's not terrible.

wj,

You remind me of a player in my game (when he's winning). Very LAG player that can accumulate monster chip stacks by playing aggro, isolating weak players and not being afraid get it in in tough spots w marginal hands.

While I only know what you post about yourself, the difference is he doesn't seem to know when to slow down or adjust, where you seem to have a much better handle on when to do that. He convinces himself that others are playing back at him and ends up hero calling his stack away. I always thought that if he could keep the good plays and eliminate his tendency to want to make the hero call, he would be an extremely tough opponent.

When he's right, he looks like a genius. When he's wrong, everyone is thinking, "It was so obvious he was beat there." You seem to make good decisions in those tough spots. Of course it's possible you just don't post about the ones that you're wrong...but I don't get that impression.

i'd probably make my pfr a bit bigger given the limpers. if i'm winning i probably just fold to the minraise (kiss of death at this level of play generally) and move on to the next hand.