Pretty non-aggressive table, lots of limping preflop going on.

Preflop:
UG ($380): Hero calls $3 with 55
U1 ($200): MAWF raises to $13 (fairly tight, should have a reasonable holding here)
SB ($600): MAAM calls
BB ($600): MAAM calls

Flop ($52): 569
SB bets $27
BB calls
Hero calls (I think SB's donk is fairly strong here. Middle set or better I would raise. As played, I didn't think raising was the correct play. I was also confident U1 did not hit this flop and would at best have an overpair here).
U1 folds

Turn ($133): 6
SB bets $40
BB calls
Hero calls (now that we fill-up, no reason to blow anybody off their hand).

River ($253): Q
SB checks
BB bets $250
Hero action?

I honestly just fold this UTG, and if I were to play it I would open it. I'm not going to war over this, as I know a lot will advocate just open limping it, but I don't have an open limp range, that's me.

On the flop I would definitely raise. We should be ahead here almost every time, can charge flush draws, and can get called by a lot worse aside from the flush draws, like 65, and OP's. I would go $100 on the flop.

Turn I would raise to $150. I understand that you don't want to blow anyone off their hand, but we also have an issue with getting stacks in by the river if we just flat here and are checked to on the river.

River is a super easy shove...I'm not sure what the question is here.

Just shove your remaining 300

Limped based on OP - limps were getting around, so we're set-mining for cheap with >100BBs per player.

Technically we have the absolute worst made hand here. What calls the extra $50? Also, if we just call, doesn't SB consider calling? BB's $250 bet is very large for this game and is extremely polarized.

SB's mind is already made up...Your decision to call or jam has no impact at all on his decision.

I would expect him to call with every single hand he bet unless he somehow has missed hearts. We are super under repped. He could easily have 6x, much less likely but I wouldn't rule out 87 either.

6h is available and you're not playing world beaters. If someone is going to bet 250 with quads or 65 or Q6hh then so be it. Calling is fine too.

With all due respect to OP, I’m trying to understand what problem in this HH he needs help or advice with.

He’s not folding a full house. If someone coolered him with QQ or 65s, just reload. Whaddya gonna do?

The only decision here is flop or turn raises. The turn seems straightforward. There may be an argument for fast-playing the flop against 2 Villains.

OP: specifically how can we help you? Thanks!

I am very confused. Are you implying that SB is only betting with set or better and that you would raise with middle set because you are at least 50/50?

And you probably should stop playing small PP, because you don't seem to win when you face any sort of aggression.

limp preflop under these game conditions is fine/standard

flop decision is interesting. the sb lead is the concerning part. bigger sets as well as nut straight are all in his range. big draws/pair + draws are as well. i tend to believe donkers into the field multiway and so our hand hates to get 3bet. i don't mind calling and seeing what happens on a fairly dynamic board. having position is awesome in this context.

the turn is a great card for you, locking up a win vs. straights and draws, while simultaneously reducing combos of higher flopped sets. definitely want to raise as you're only behind 4 combos (66 and 99) and plenty of weaker hands will call (straights and flush draws). time to target those hands. you're getting it in with 66/99 anyway, might as well get max value when ahead.

Kind of crazy that this is the 4th or 5th comment in which someone suggested that donk bet in LLSNL is very strong.

Curious if that's true in LLSNL nowadays...

a donk bet in a multiway pot represents a stronger range than it does in a heads up pot. this is true of low stakes or high stakes. its true of online or live. of course, board texture matters also. there's much less incentive to donk on textures that give the PFR a range advantage, you're going to be checking a bunch in those spots. textures that don't favor the PFR will be donked at a much higher rate b/c you can't count on a cbet.

Raise the flop. Just because SB donk has hands in his range that beat us doesn't mean our hand isn't good enough to raise for value and protection

Also, the BB should be raising sets and 87 on the flop. His line looks more like 76s to me.

We've played a FH as passively as possible, folding is way too nitty imo

Couple of reasons for posting this hand, in no particular order:

1. In my opinion, donk betting here multiway is quite strong. For that reason, I think 66 is a raise, 55 is not. I remember watching a Bart Hanson vid one time where he explained why middle set was a call and bottom was not, but I can't tell you exactly how it relates to this. Also, if for some reason original raiser decides to spazz with an overpair, I can see what SB/BB do and play accordingly.

2. No intentions of folding River. BB never has a better FH here, so he's likely on a busted draw. Question is, can SB ever have a hand that check-calls, given how underrepresented my hand is. Would he really check a straight on the River? He would probably go for some thin value, given that the hearts bricked out, right? He definitely has a hand here - maybe even 6x that might think it's good against me if I just call (remember, BB looks like he completely missed his hand here and my call looks quite weak).

3. Is the best line here then to raise flop, call Turn, and raise River?

That's not what I was implying.

It requires no explanation that when someone donk bets, there is a correlation between strength of hand and size of field.

This part doesn't make sense. Why would you be betting top of your range against bottom of PFR's range, unless you're looking for a fold.

Yes, but only for a hand that is middling in strength.

Based on everything you have said so far, it still doesn't imply that donk bet has a strong range, other than that the bet in a 5-way situation is probably stronger than a 3-way.

This makes absolutely no sense as if you are attacking 55 and that you're behind 66.

Difference between the two hands is (3) combos of 55. How can (3) combos make one hand worth raising and the other is flatting?

Thing is, context matters in poker, and it matters a lot.

If you don't think bottom or even middle set is raising hand, maybe you shouldn't be calling with anything below TT.

I don't quite understand your motivation in these spots. You want to play these hands and yet when you make the hand, you're afraid to extract value and play them as bluff catchers.

I like a raise on the turn.

I agree donk bet is strong but what strength are we talking about.

3 combos of 99, 3 combos of 66, 16 comboes of 87o, 15 combos of 2 pair,

so 22 beat us 15 losing. CONSIDER RAISING especially with flush draws possible.

TURN - 1 combo of 66, 3 combo of 99, 2 combo of 65, and 6 combo of 96 now, vs 16 combos of 87o

12 beat us 16 now losing, and there is a flush draw that would kill action with the 16 losing and a BB caller. PLEASE RAISE HERE

SB checked which discounts all his hands that beat us.

BB now takes his place which is still 12 beat us 16 losing but picked up QQ combos putting it still at 15 vs 16 (higher if we put Q9 combos but that's less likely since hard to call top pair with Q kicker)

You are totally under repped and look like a flush draw. Just call.


**I'm not double checking my combo math but the gist of it is RAISE TURN for value vs 78o and flush draws. Also DON'T FOLD HOUSES on river when you are under repped.

If 87o exist in V's range, then obviously 98, 97, 76, 86, T8, T7 all exist.

But are we seriously arguing that LLSNL V's are only donking with the very top of their range? Are we excluding all 9x, 77 to JJ hands as well?

The irony is, when was the last time someone suggested to donk bet into PFR with top set, straight, or nutted hand?

I posted that we should donk bet with bottom set and there were several posters mocking it as -EV, and in fact, one of them is suggesting that we will never win big pots by donk betting on the flop because it's offering great odds for draws.

So let me get this straight. None of us would bet with top of our range in this spot, but V will?

I am illustrating that even worst case scenario raising with bottom set is not bad. If you include all the other hands to listed it’s even clearer.

I'm raising this flop. As played though, jam the river.

I'm fairly certain that I played this hand "incorrectly," which is why I posted this hand to see what people's thoughts were.

However, I actually ended up winning the maximum amount possible in this hand.

The other way I could've won a similar amount of $ is if I raised flop and SB/BB came back over the top. However, if SB+BB spazzed on the flop, is bottom set really still good at that point?

Results:

Hands can be argued many different ways based on player reads and perceived self image.

In this instance, we were given very little information other than stack sizes and acronyms describing their physical attributes.

"Donk" bets are rarely strong, usually a middling hand with a cap to the range.

BB's range is capped, as most would not slow-play a strong made hand OOP with aggression in front (except H obviously). Draws are likely and bluff catcher is likely in HU instances but probably much less likely in this scenario given there are 2 players left to act including aggressor. So I think BB's range is likely weighed heavily toward a hybrid of draws that includes hands such as 98, 97, pair with draws that can work as bluff catcher.

Although reading from H's own analysis, it appears that H is not slow-playing, but rather leveling himself into thinking his hand could be behind (will raise with top set but not middle set or bottom set).

End result is great for H and I don't think it was played wrong given that H is likely going to be in position with a very strong hand against a middling range and a draw. However, there was no indication that BB would have spewed in this hand, so I would argue that the right play would still had been to consider raising the flop.

It's a bit of both. Flop I was being cautious; Turn I was slowplaying.

Because SB was the one to lead into a field of three players, I tend to give these donk bets a bit more credit. If BB were the one that donked, I would raise, given the relative positions. If SB were to 4! and come back over the top on the flop over that, then that would be a tough decision.

What I don't want happening on the flop is SB donks, BB calls, Hero raises, OR folds, and SB goes with his hand. How can you comfortably call off with bottom set here? Maybe SB has an overplayed 96 and that's about it. That's why I think middle set has more value than bottom set, despite what looks to be an incremental advantage.

What I've personally found with live poker is that preflop ranges are typically quite wide, especially when the original raise is very small (which is almost always the case, and definitely in this case). You are correct about live-play and reads/Hero's image/etc. The fact that SB tanked for so long speaks volumes about how much some players overvalue their hands.

If SB is donking with nothing, and BB is drawing, what am I worried about with bottom set and position? I already discounted OR continuing, or if she did, I would call her short-stack all-in.

I agree that BB spewing (with that sizing) was somewhat unexpected. For me, the question is, does BB complete his type of hand (fill-up on the River) often enough to merit slowplaying the Turn?