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1/3: Whiffed AK against spazzy villain 1/3: Whiffed AK against spazzy villain

03-12-2015 , 06:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobman0330
his range is extremely weak (potentially as wide as ATC), your range is extremely strong, your actual hand is at the very bottom of your range, you have a lot of equity even if he calls, the pot is large, LLSNL opponents tend to fold marginal hands too much to bets that are small by relation to the pot, but large in dollar terms.
We still have ~$400 left and we've only put $65 in. I don't think we're committed to making a $400 bluff to win a $130 pot; especially since we might win it anyways by checking.

Villain knows what his cards are. He gets to decide whether to stick in the remaining $400. Hero's ranged is pretty capped. V knows overpairs and AK are almost all of Hero's range. He can make an informed decision for $400. If Hero bluffs, it's just a guess and a hope.

Our hand has great equity against ATC, but V isn't going to play for stacks with ATC. We don't need to fold out ATC anyways. We don't have good equity against any hand he'll call with. Even a hand like KJo has ~70% equity against us.

dgiharris loves to say that villains like to "put you on AK". This seems like a villain who might just do that. We're at least a 2 to 1 dog against hands he might take a stand with like KT/QT, AJ.

We've got two more streets to push V off a marginal hand if we really do want to bluff. Plus, we'll have more information when we do it.
1/3: Whiffed AK against spazzy villain Quote
03-12-2015 , 06:30 PM
I'm undecided on whether to c-bet or check behind flop. We 3-bet so I'd like to continue to represent a strong hand and get him to fold on the flop. At the same time, I'd have to fold if he makes a reasonable sized raise and I'd be hating life in that spot. There are SO many better spots to stack off vs. a aggro/sticky fish than on this flop.

I like to check behind on the flop. Not because I think a c-bet is bad, only because I don't want to get check-raised and have to fold this flop. No need to go crazy in a marginal spot vs. this V when he will give you much better opportunities.

Then again, he was just calling earlier instead of raising so if we c-bet and he calls, we can take the free card on the turn a lot of the time if we don't improve. I do consider this guy a station and because of that, I do think trying to push him off a hand w multiple barrels is a mistake. I'm c-betting to try to take it down and take the free card on the turn unimproved. Not planning on trying to make a station fold after the flop. When in doubt, I'd take the aggressive line and c-bet I guess.

Last edited by eyurus; 03-12-2015 at 06:33 PM. Reason: ETA
1/3: Whiffed AK against spazzy villain Quote
03-12-2015 , 06:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyurus
I like to check behind on the flop. Not because I think a c-bet is bad, only because I don't want to get check-raised and have to fold this flop. No need to go crazy in a marginal spot vs. this V when he will give you much better opportunities.
I see your point. However, if villain check-raises after hero's 3bet pre and cbet, he either has a set or is the ballsiest low stakes player I've ever seen. I'd rather know now if I'm against a monster so I can save my money if an A or K hits. Otherwise we're really just checking and hoping to hit a 4 outer. I instafold if V check-raise shoves.
1/3: Whiffed AK against spazzy villain Quote
03-12-2015 , 06:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jesse123
We still have ~$400 left and we've only put $65 in. I don't think we're committed to making a $400 bluff to win a $130 pot; especially since we might win it anyways by checking.

Villain knows what his cards are. He gets to decide whether to stick in the remaining $400. Hero's ranged is pretty capped. V knows overpairs and AK are almost all of Hero's range. He can make an informed decision for $400. If Hero bluffs, it's just a guess and a hope.

Our hand has great equity against ATC, but V isn't going to play for stacks with ATC. We don't need to fold out ATC anyways. We don't have good equity against any hand he'll call with. Even a hand like KJo has ~70% equity against us.

dgiharris loves to say that villains like to "put you on AK". This seems like a villain who might just do that. We're at least a 2 to 1 dog against hands he might take a stand with like KT/QT, AJ.

We've got two more streets to push V off a marginal hand if we really do want to bluff. Plus, we'll have more information when we do it.
It's not correct to say that hero's range is capped when it consists entirely of {the nuts, the second nuts, overpairs, hands with 10 outs to beat top pair}. Really, it's floored. It's villain's range that is capped.

It's also wrong to say that we're going to have more (useful) information if we check the flop. Either we improve our hand, in which case villain is highly unlikely to put any more money in, as all the cards that help us (other than diamonds) are utterly terrifying. Or the board "blanks" and we have absolutely no idea whether the card hit villain's range or not.

I mean, do you ever make double-barrel bluffs? It's hard to think of a situation where a two-street bluff is going to work better than it will here.

EDIT: Let me ask a different question. If you have AA, do you expect to stack this guy 100% of the time when he has 88 or T9 by betting the flop and the turn? 3bet preflop, multiple overcards, bomb the flop, bomb the turn, and he's just blithely calling because hey, maybe it's AK?

Last edited by bobman0330; 03-12-2015 at 06:47 PM.
1/3: Whiffed AK against spazzy villain Quote
03-12-2015 , 06:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nice_Guy_Eddie
I see your point. However, if villain check-raises after hero's 3bet pre and cbet, he either has a set or is the ballsiest low stakes player I've ever seen. I'd rather know now if I'm against a monster so I can save my money if an A or K hits. Otherwise we're really just checking and hoping to hit a 4 outer. I instafold if V check-raise shoves.
I think I decided c-bet is best (mainly because I'm undecided so I take the aggressive route but I do think its very close) but in the scenario you describe, we would give ourselves a chance to stack V when he has a monster if we check behind on the flop. We could bink a Q or diamond draw and see if he gives us the right price to draw. Isn't it better to give ourselves a chance to "cooler" V when he does have a monster than to find out we are behind on the flop and have to fold? When he doesn't have a monster, our overcards may make the best 1 pr hands too. By checking behind, we abide by the "small hand, small pot" motto.

Don't forget the best play is what we would do if we knew our opponent's hole cards. If we KNEW V had a monster, we should CHECK (to take the card to catch up), not bet. You're advocating BETTING to find out if he has a monster, which is the opposite of what we should do if he has a monster, IMO.
1/3: Whiffed AK against spazzy villain Quote
03-12-2015 , 07:49 PM
The thing that would be most important for me before checking or c-betting would be (that op hasn't posted or doesn't know) and that nobody has brought up yet, is since we know that V donks out with top pair on the turn, is does he also do this on the flop? We know he check calls with at least a gutshot. Fine, does he donk bet, or check call with 2nd pair on the flop? Or just C/C draws. If he donks with 2nd pair, but c/c with worse, I c-bet $70 every time and feel great about it. If V. calls and donks the turn, and I don't improve, easy fold. If V checks turn, I double barrel any diamond and Q,K, or A.

Without this info, I'm still C-betting this flop but checking back all turns.

I'm in the camp that if we 3 bet, we need to c-bet the flop esp. with position.
1/3: Whiffed AK against spazzy villain Quote
03-12-2015 , 08:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobman0330
It's villain's range that is capped.

It's also wrong to say that we're going to have more (useful) information if we check the flop. Either we improve our hand, in which case villain is highly unlikely to put any more money in, as all the cards that help us (other than diamonds) are utterly terrifying. Or the board "blanks" and we have absolutely no idea whether the card hit villain's range or not.

I mean, do you ever make double-barrel bluffs? It's hard to think of a situation where a two-street bluff is going to work better than it will here.

EDIT: Let me ask a different question. If you have AA, do you expect to stack this guy 100% of the time when he has 88 or T9 by betting the flop and the turn? 3bet preflop, multiple overcards, bomb the flop, bomb the turn, and he's just blithely calling because hey, maybe it's AK?
How is villain range capped? You said he could have ATC. That's the opposite of capped. Hero's range isn't technically capped, but I think V will see it that way based on his comments and hand history. Hero made the initial raise pre-flop in a prior hand and villain puts him on aces. Now, Hero is putting in a 3-bet? This is AA/KK/AK in this villains mind IMO. He's not going to put Hero on TT.

I do double-barrel bluffs, but I don't typically do it against stationy Vs. V c/c $25 on the flop with Q5 on an A42 board. These are guys I generally move from the "bluff him" category to the "value bet category". My double barrels are just as villain dependent as board dependent. Guys that call on gutshots and then check when they hit aren't ideal candidates for double barrels in my book.

I don't know what this V is willing to stack off with. I certainly don't expect him to stack off with pocket 8s "100% of the time" against AA. I would expect him to stack off with AJ, KJ, etc very frequently. If he's got 88, he can be bluffed out on a later street. We don't have to commit to double barreling on the flop to push out 88.

We do gain information on the turn. In addition to the card that comes out, we get to see Vs reaction to that card. Does he check? Does he bet? What size? We get to see his demeanor. We get to speed he acts. I think a delayed c-bet could be just as effective as a double barrel in this spot and it has far less downside.
1/3: Whiffed AK against spazzy villain Quote

      
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