V is a LAG raising every 2-3 hands and routinely runs down the table by cbetting or when he's running hot . However, he views me as a nit/winner and folded a turned A (AJ) face up to my double barrel after floating my Cbet with Ahi on a 8hi flop.

Stacks: V-$1000, Hero-$400

OTTH.. 2 limps, V raises to $15 in CO (betsizing tell=weak), Hero raises to $55 in SB with TT, folds around to V who calls.

Flop ($120): J64r
Hero bets $60, V calls

Turn ($240): Kx
Hero ??

I don't see anything good coming out of this turn card. If I check, he most likely checks behind Jx and wins. If I check and he bets, I will be in a tough spot and have to fold as sets/KJ are easily in his range, but he may also have some floats which he will definitely bet once I show weakness by checking.

So do we barrel this card and turn TT into a bluff to get V to fold Jx? Or do we check/get put in an awkward spot?

Also-in retrospect-should I just flat pre and let one of the limpers (whales) in, not bloat the pot OOP and play a MW pot to setmine?

No. The line is fine and we need to give up now. Lets not try and bluff him off AJ too often. It doesnt make sense to barrel the k with anything, its not a consistent story

Why do you think he has AJ? With his stack size, he has a lot more stuff than that. AJ should be at the top of his range.

And even AJ should have a hard time when a player like me who 3b pre after an hour double barrels a K turn because even if I was cbetting AK, I have TPTK now.

Yeah, he might not fold sometimes, but check/giving up seems too weak.


ALSO, would you check/give up blank turns below a 9 too?

Yeah but i think he checks back here a LOT so im ready to see a free river.

I get your point tho but im thinking AK would be a natural check spot so i think we are completely unbalanced here. I feel like you might check the K and bet your bluffs on this card as v

I like where you are going with this but im not folding Jx in a 3b pot as villain. Im not floating much, i dont have any draws. I prob have no betting range when you check.

Im looking at this hand from villains perspective and the K isnt an obstacle to calling with QJ, say. But...i can't fault you here. Bluffing the K is worth the effort. But you may have to bet blank rivers too coz i doubt he folds turn. I am sure i dont have a fold range as v so thats how i see it

Also think K hits him a lot.

we have $285 left and the pot is $240.

I probably check and soul read in this spot. Probably folding to a bet. if he checks turn, checking again on all non-T rivers.

Why are we bothered about balancing in live 1/3? With AK, we don't want to give free cards to Jx, 75 or 99 here because he's not putting more money in the pot anyway unless he spikes his 2p+ IMO.

Which is why I think I should be betting my entire range on this turn and put him to the test, rather than let him have his way out with Jx, which is a significant part of his range.

The best way to bluff with this hand is to check and consider bluffing a river A, Q, or 9 and hoping for a cheap showdown otherwise.

I think checking the turn with our entire range makes sense in this spot. Give him a chance to value-own himself or take a stab at the pot after his flop float.

These three-bet spots where we get floated often play a lot better as turn checks unless there's a clear draw out there and our opponent is passive.

You bluff without a story,

Just a simple question: If you contemplating bluffing on the turn face card of a K. If the flop would have been instead J64r but J6K and the 4 would been on the turn. Same board. If you want to bluff the turn for say 2/4 pot like $80 that makes it $60 pre + $80 turn = $140 for a double bluff. Now, would you have bet-bluff the same amount of $140 on the J6K flop if the random cards would have come in that order. Just the K and 4 in a different order. K OTF and 4 OTT (just a little malfunction of the shuffle machine) LOL ..,. Betting with TT $140 in two overcards of Jack and King all at once OTF or breaking the $140 in two chunks and bluffing the same amount in the same two overcards but twice little by little OTF & OTT because they come in separate sequences.

Isn't that a real nice little gold puzzle for you to solve and find where the money are hidden? - Yes, it is ... The most complicated skill is so simple.

And checking back is too. If i was watching this hand and two experts were playing, i would expect the turn to always check thru on the king regardless of the hands they actually have. Both players should check turn because someone is always WA/WB. If we had KK we wouldnt bet. Even checking pocket JJ seems fine. Interestingly i think u can fire a queen turn

^ In theory, K is the perfect db card. Why would the OR check?

Coz the k hits someone hard.

It might actually be a good barrell spot because you almost cant win this pot without betting.

But i look at it from v perspective and would read your hand as a bluff if you bet the turn. I would feel like its always a bluff when i have blockers.

So, what range do you put villain on to this action? Imo the hands in his range that reach the turn are 99, QJs, KJs, AJs, AQs, maybe QQ and AK

AJs is not gonna fold here prob, QJ maybe

I bet he checks back every one of those hands OTT, and call with all but 99, but i dont know villain. If he is good he shouldnt fold the K too often and he has tens beat a lot. I think if you check you will see a free river and might be able to bluff it there but i prefer to reach showdown. He might check down AQs and we are good. Thats tge only hand he can bluff wirh ott anyway

Why am I bluffing if I bet turn? I have JJ/KK/AA/AK all in my range. Besides, I don't 3b light in my games, so there's barely any bluffs here, just AQs and TT exactly.

Also, his range is weak and as you said, the only way for me to pick up the pot is to keep betting. My cards become kind of irrelevant. Ofcourse, this is hypothetical and I'm not barreling here in realtime often, but I think I'm being too passive in these spots and playing too ABC, and end up relying on absolute hand strength all the time to make money.

I was glad you admitted the 3! pre was a bit ambitious against this opponent given his position at the table and massive stack.

Turn is a check in my book. Given the large 3-bet got called pre and now we have two overcards to our pair the white flag needs to be waved. Likely the best line is to hope to check down on almost all rivers. A ten we value bet thin on the river and still fold to a jam probably? On a river 9, Q, A maybe we open jam those rivers if we have a read he makes folds, but still this is ambitious.

99-JJ are very difficult hands to play and tend to lose players money long term when they too frequently 3-bet these types of hands. One thing I definitely realized playing with a HUD online was those 3 hands in particular I played worse than any other combos. It was due to my 3-betting pre frequency of 99-JJ (albeit this was online 6max play) was far to high.

Try calling more often both IP and OP unless you have a specific reason to raise dictated by gameflow and villains. It gives hero an easier time folding these hands when the board becomes scary since the pot isn't bloated from PF action. Once that preflop 3! came into play, however, you end up in this forum asking if I can get away with a sick jam in this spot I'm totally unsure of if i'm way ahead of or way behind. So when in these situations I default to can I get away with a sick play here? lol

Interesting spot, enjoyed these thoughts.

Your on a very good track!!!!

If your 3 betting tight. Then we don't even have much of turn check range on this board. We are going for value!!!! And committed with our whole range, except 10-10 and maybe QQ

Betting AA, KK, and AK always,
QQ is in tough spot and would likely check call it off. Check JJ to balance a bit, and with us holding JJ his range on flop is rather weak.

So that leaves you with 10-10, it is a your only bluff candidate. So if you think you need to have some bluffs, (I believe it is key to my success). Then this is the hand.

AJ, QQ, QJ, J10 are put into very tough spots here. Obviously we are going broke vs K-J, KK, and JJ. So given all value hands we have, we should have lots of fold equity vs thinking player.

And you can stop arguing about K being a good card to use as bluff. It is hands down your best card in deck to turn 10-10 into a bluff.

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This is literally the best turn barrel card we could hope for. V can't really call with anything except sets or KJ, because he almost certainly didn't float us on the flop with AK.

Bet $125.

Why are we auto giving this guy a J? I love check call.... and if he checks back maybe go for thin value depending on your read. If he's raising as much as you say can he have 67s, A4s, maybe 55. I think you are ahead here so often. When you bet the turn you make it hard to get called by worse when you probably have the best hand AND this guy called your flop bet w Ah his flop call doesn't mean much.... your probably way ahead.

Grunch.

V raised an amount you think means he's weak and then just called your OOP 3b.

I'd guess he usually has a PP with some SCs and maybe suited aces. I'm discounting JJ+ based on the weak read, though he can obviously show up with one of those hands sometimes.

He called a half pot cbet from a person he thinks is a nit. I think we can get rid of almost all the SCs and suited aces now. He might continue with A6, A4, 53s, and 77 - TT. He might call or raise with a bigger hand (set, 64s, overpair, or TP). There's some chance he's floating a flop he figures misses a nit's range.

The K is a scare card for most of his range. If you bet, I'd expect him to fold everything worse than 2P (especially with his previous open fold of aces).

I'd x/c the turn, planning to evaluate the river. I'm not folding here, since the K is such a good bluffing card and V is described as a LAG. Checking the turn also makes it look like the K scared us, further inducing some action.

If the turn gets checked through, I'd b/f about half the pot on the river.

If V bets turn and river, I think I'd give him credit and lay it down.

After reading responses

I don't like flatting this pre. We're ahead of V's range (if read is correct) but OOP. Winning now is fine. Narrowing V's range is useful if he calls. I really don't like playing vulnerable hands OOP to aggressive V's, especially when SPR will be right around 11 if no one else calls. Unless we think V is a real maniac, we can easily fold to a 4b.

Even IP, I think I'm raising this, though the arguments for flatting are stronger.

I'm also cbetting the flop all day long. We're probably ahead now, but there are a lot of cards we don't want to see on the turn, and some more that will actually put V ahead of us.

yes. blast away. He is very unlikely to have a K in his range and the only thing that is beating you is a J. When he flats you on the flop, most likely has something like 67, 75, 86. Some kind of middle gapper that connects with the two low cards.

If he had a J, he would have leveraged that against you on the flop.

If you shove on the turn, he is folding, or you were already beat on the flop by some funky two pair or low set. But there is too much money in the pot to just give up.

Does not compute. Even if V is LAG, our hand is nowhere near strong enough to play rope-a-dope, and V could easily end up bluffing with the best hand (Jx). If we had AJ or better I could get behind this play, but TT is just way too vulnerable here to use as a two-street bluff catcher. Just take this pot while we can.

Yeah, fair point. For some reason I overweighted V's initial weak raise and didn't properly account for calling a PF 3b and a flop bet from a perceived nit. His line is actually much stronger than I previously thought. (I actually wonder how strong.)

Very late to thread but anyway, this is not the hand to continue firing on the turn with, you'll have plenty of value combos (ak, kk, kj, AA) on this turn to bet with along with better bluff combos (aq,at,qt,9t) Checking and trying to reach showdown should be best with a hand that can still be best.

Agree with above.

Another thing i want to say is i dislike the sizing otf. 50% of pot on the flop isnt optimal for a few reasons. I bet 75

Well, The Machine agrees with the 3 Bet, in fact, she 3 bets AA-66, AQ+, ATs+. This is against a C/o range of about 23%. I suspect your villain is opening larger.

Postflop is curious. And no one is going to like it.

Flop: Check/call -> Turn: Check/Fold.

If the Flop is checked through, 1/4 pot bet on the turn.

I have seen The Machine take this line before with marginal hands, heads up. Broadly speaking, she is loathe to commit to two bets with a showdown hand by the turn. It seems a little weak-tight, but to be fair ... heads up is her domain, and she has played approximately two trillion more hands than me ...

And this forum.

So there's that.

On that dry of a texture?

Not sure why you say bolded. That is pretty much the standard line.

Also not sure if the machine is a joke or not but 1/4 ott is interesting.