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<img / Top Set - Should I Get Away On The Turn? <img / Top Set - Should I Get Away On The Turn?

03-13-2015 , 12:54 PM
$1/$3 NLH, typical game of mostly loose passives with one villain who is loose preflop and who is very aggressive postflop. The villain in this hand appears to have played 80% of hands in the hour I have been at the table and he has bet or raised the flop and turn on something close to half the hands with which he has seen a flop.

On to the hand in question...

Effective stacks are ~$550.

I open to $15 with KK in UTG+1 and get 5 callers.

Flop ($90) is KJ4r. I lead for $65. Only the villain calls.
Turn ($220) is A offsuit completing the rainbow. I lead for $150. Villain raises "all in" for an additional $325.

Call or fold to the loose aggressive villain with top set and pot odds of just over 2:1 and one card to come?
<img / Top Set - Should I Get Away On The Turn? Quote
03-13-2015 , 01:05 PM
We don't want 5 callers to a raise with a TP hand, imo. I would have either raised a lot more, or more likely limp/reraised at this loose table (especially hoping aggro guy raises for me).

I would just pot the flop. The bottom line is that someone is either interested in continuing, or they ain't, and the size of the bet makes no difference so long as it is within reason. We have a world full of opponents, someone is likely willing to come along.

Even though the OESD got there, I don't think I'm folding against most players given that there's enough two pair hands here that could think they are good. Against a guy who raises a lot, this is a snap call.

GcluelessNLnoobG
<img / Top Set - Should I Get Away On The Turn? Quote
03-13-2015 , 01:16 PM
I can't fold here. Hand was played fine. Maybe slightly more on flop and turn, but I have no problem with your sizing.

(If you can get more from them pre or lessen the field with a bigger bet, fine, but I realize sometimes they all call and sometimes they all fold no matter what you do.)
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03-13-2015 , 01:18 PM
Cooler if he has broadway and you are still only a 4:1 dog at worst. You haven't said which seat V is, if he is the last to act than QTs is much more likely than if he was the first caller after you raised. Regardless,

<img / Top Set - Should I Get Away On The Turn? Quote
03-13-2015 , 01:23 PM
Grunch:

Flop bet is good, could be a tad bigger IMO but it's not super wet so you might be right on.

Turn is good too, lots of two-pair hands get there. We still crush sets. Against this particular villain I'm never ever ever ever folding top set. Even if he has QT, we've got outs to fill up. Folding here is a crime against humanity.
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03-13-2015 , 01:39 PM
GII, never folding.
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03-13-2015 , 01:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek
We don't want 5 callers to a raise with a TP hand, imo. I would have either raised a lot more, or more likely limp/reraised at this loose table (especially hoping aggro guy raises for me).

I would just pot the flop. The bottom line is that someone is either interested in continuing, or they ain't, and the size of the bet makes no difference so long as it is within reason. We have a world full of opponents, someone is likely willing to come along.

Even though the OESD got there, I don't think I'm folding against most players given that there's enough two pair hands here that could think they are good. Against a guy who raises a lot, this is a snap call.

GcluelessNLnoobG
You're open raising more than 5x UTG+1 with KK? I get SPRs and what not but don't we want some action with KK?

Limp/re-raising allows our villains to play perfectly against us. It folds out everything that would continue had we just open/raised. And we only get action from AA.

I agree we may want to bet more on the flop. Now we're here we should never fold.
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03-13-2015 , 01:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCabForTootie
You're open raising more than 5x UTG+1 with KK? I get SPRs and what not but don't we want some action with KK?

Limp/re-raising allows our villains to play perfectly against us. It folds out everything that would continue had we just open/raised. And we only get action from AA.
I guess in the end I just hate our preflop result (6way, small SPR, OOP, with a bluffy aggro guy in the hand, which makes for a hellish situation postflop on non K boards). I know this sometimes does happen in spite of our best efforts, but I think overall we are far better off avoiding spots like this. Going to a limped small pot is far better, as is the limp/reraise route, imo. And I don't think we're only getting action from AA doing the limp/reraise route (we can easily get action from big Ax and biggish pocket pairs, and maybe even WTF gambooley hands). And if we see a raise and 4 callers and take down $75 preflop uncontested without getting action, oh well, no biggee.

GimoG
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03-13-2015 , 02:46 PM
Call then go online and post HH of cooler, such an obvious decision
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03-13-2015 , 03:01 PM
you can never fold this spot if you fold in these kind of spots then what is your range for calling hands?
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03-13-2015 , 03:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cbrewer4
Call then go online and post HH of cooler, such an obvious decision
Actually, smartyarse, there was no cooler and my hand was good. I posted because although I didn't think I could ever fold there, several people at the table exclaimed that they could never have called. So, it occurred to me that soliciting and understanding other points of view might be useful. Isn't that why we post hand histories?
<img / Top Set - Should I Get Away On The Turn? Quote
03-13-2015 , 03:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek
I guess in the end I just hate our preflop result (6way, small SPR, OOP, with a bluffy aggro guy in the hand, which makes for a hellish situation postflop on non K boards). I know this sometimes does happen in spite of our best efforts, but I think overall we are far better off avoiding spots like this. Going to a limped small pot is far better, as is the limp/reraise route, imo. And I don't think we're only getting action from AA doing the limp/reraise route (we can easily get action from big Ax and biggish pocket pairs, and maybe even WTF gambooley hands). And if we see a raise and 4 callers and take down $75 preflop uncontested without getting action, oh well, no biggee.

GimoG
Good point, I guess if I see a l/rr, it is always AA/KK and I can play off that range. Our opponents aren't quite so observant.
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03-13-2015 , 03:48 PM
Anyone who said they'd fold KK here was trolling you
<img / Top Set - Should I Get Away On The Turn? Quote
03-13-2015 , 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TiggerToo
several people at the table exclaimed that they could never have called.
Two questions:

1) Where do you play?
2) What's the nearest airport to said room?
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03-13-2015 , 03:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCabForTootie
Two questions:

1) Where do you play?
2) What's the nearest airport to said room?
I was playing in a room in the Midwest while there on business this week. I hope to have to see that client many, many times again -- soon!
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03-13-2015 , 04:06 PM
Punching yourself in the dick with brass knuckles would be a better play than folding top set in that spot.
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03-14-2015 , 11:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCabForTootie
Two questions:

1) Where do you play?
2) What's the nearest airport to said room?
This
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03-14-2015 , 11:51 PM
I think the hand was played well the entire way. Folding would often be a disaster. Lots of two pair combos got there on the turn and I could see villain thinking he got there with AK, AJ and even A4.
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03-15-2015 , 12:26 AM
OP read all the posts about losing w sets over the last week and knew he was beat.
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03-15-2015 , 12:47 AM
Don't fold.
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