1/3 hero ($600) limps 88 pre utg, lp and sb call (both have $300)

bb ($600, fish racked up and about to leave who called a $100 all in pre last hand with K6o) makes it 26,

hero, lp and sb call

lp is an okayish reg, loves to chase, but fast-plays his super-strong hands on drawy boards
sb is a good middle-aged reg, won't ever bluff hero as he thinks hero plays super tight, doesn't call pre with 47s but 79s is definitely a possibility as is 66 and 55, would have raised 99+ pre

flop (104): 8d6d5c
bb checks, hero bets 90, lp calls, sb c/shoves ai for 300, bb folds, hero ?



also, is this a fold pre?

No way am I folding this flop. If villain can call pf with 97s, then he can also call with overcards that make a flush draw on his flop, and villain will think his overcard outs might be good here. In other words, I think his range is wider than just straights and sets (some villains won't raise draws here, but we should include some draws in his range because there are many possible draws he could have and some villains will raise overcards with flush draws). Also there are only 4 combos of 97s. Sets have more combos on this board. You have villain crushed if you're ahead of sets and you have several outs if you're behind. So even if villain never raises with overcards with flush draws you are still doing well against his range and should get all-in.

Villain is a huge fish and the effective stacks are $600 when you're facing him so I'd be tempted to call pf. Unfortunately the other players might fold because of the size of the raise, but you occasionally will get a caller or two.

I will never fold this spot here, you are crushing absolutely everything except for 97s, even if this is the case it is not that much -ev to call. The villain called 26 pre (274 behind) with 104 in pot 90 from your bet 90 from a call, pot is 284. Villain shoves for 274 (184 over your bet), so you are calling 184 into 558 so you need 32.9% equity to break even. In the worst case scenario hero is only slightly -ev with about ~30% equity. In every other scenario, you either have them crushed or need to fade spades...if board does not pair.

Don't think I am folding pre with stacks so deep, implied odds look too delicious to pass up.

New to forums, if I calculate or misunderstand certain terms please let me know.

Grunch

Never folding a set here. Straights are definitely part of his range but so are smaller sets, two pair, combo draws etc... Worst case scenario you are up against a straight but you still have ~ 30% equity against those.

For 100BB ship all day here. Sorry if you lost.

Not a fold pre IMO, >than 10:1 implied odds are good enough for me to set mine in a situation where you can see all the money going in.

One of the reasons we set mine with greater implied odds than 8:1 (approx. odds of flopping a set) is to account for the times when we flop a set and lose.

There's something wrong about the hand history because he started with 300 and put in 26 pre-flop and still has 300 on the flop. Even assuming he still has 300 on the flop it's an easy call.

The pot is 374. He's raising 210, so you need 210/794 or 26.44% equity to call. If Villain has 9d7d you have 29.5% equity.

Never, ever folding.

PF: I hate open-limping. If I'm going to play 88 here, I raise, although 88 is not in my raising range UTG. I'd fold. What's your plan if LP or SB decide to three-bet? We are (likely) going to play this hand OOP, and calling 13x to set mine; that's bad.

F: (4) handed. Pot is $104. SPR is 5.5 against PF raiser. SPR is 2.8 against SB. Wow, so we bet pot, and SB check/shoves for $300. Our SPR is 2.8 against him. He could be doing this sets or combo draws like Ad5d or Ad7d. Yeah, I double he called with 97 or 74. I don't think we can fold top set here for 100bb.

snap call nh

You make limping a PP in EP sound like a crime. Since when did 88 become an open-fold in FR even if it's UTG? Also, isn't a standard UTG raising range supposed to be 99+/AK? What's so wrong with limping this hand in EP especially if players are weak and bad?

Anyways, results:

SB flipped 66 for middle set
LP flipped T9dd for a gutshot straight-flush draw

Turn bricked, River 3d flushed my a** off.

The hand would have played the same even if I raised UTG, and no, I'm NEVER open-folding a pocket pair in any position in this game because of all the junk people call with preflop.

Easy call all day long against any reasonable range?
Nevermind the fact that once we have reached this decisions point that we are getting a little over 2.5:1 so we only need ~29% equity in the hand to make a break even call if he flips over the current nuts right now.
If that is the case, we are ~31% to boat up by the river.

Now sure, we can construct scenarios where people are killing our outs, and we don't have the equity that we need to continue if they only have the nuts, and someone else is has a set also (as is the case here).

But this isn't going to happen all the time, and instead will only be a portion of the time. And the times that they both happen to have a combo draw (killing each others outs), or that they both have a lower set, or that someone holds an OP and someone else has just a weak flush draw or any number of other profitable situations for us, we make tons of money. The idea of folding here is just out of the question.

Just remember, math is your friend.

Best of luck to you, and sorry about you losing the pot.

Of course, not a crime. I generally just don't like limping. Even if the table is generally passive I don't like limping. Yes, of course there are some time when limping can be OK, but overall, I don't do it. Like, if I'm on the BTN, there are bunch of limpers, and I know the blinds won't raise, then yeah limping may be OK.

IMO, 88 has always been an open-fold UTG in FR. I like to play tight out-of-position. My range UTG is TT+, AK, AQs, that's it.

Even if players are "weak and bad", they still have position on you and I hate limping when someone behind could raise and when it goes to flop I'm playing 88 OOP on a board that likely has overcards. Those are spots I don't like to be in. There are so many better way to make money at 1/2 live than being in those types of spots.

There are probably some (or hell, maybe it's many) that disagree but those are just my thoughts. Most books that I've read advocate a very tight range UTG; as tight as QQ+ and AK only.

Also, if you've every played online with a tracker, have you looked at your profitability from small to medium pairs in early position; it likely was not in the green.

While this particular fact may be true (and it likely is) it is not going to be completely applicable to live play.
People play so much worse live than they do online.
There are things that you simply can't do on-line and expect to turn a profit.

But something like set mining OOP live can still be very profitable depending on the table dynamics.

I think this is a pretty horrible mindset for live play, especially 200bb deep. Obviously table dependent, but I can think of plenty of reasons to open limp from EP. In this case, we're asked to call $26 to set mine multi-way. Yes, please.

As played, I like everything about it.

This is the pure math reason to make this call. You need to remember once you bet 90 the you are willing to stack off in this spot. And imo you should be more than happy to stack off on this spot.

As for pre flop we are 200bb effective vs the fish so we are calling 7bb with the potential of win better than 20x our invesment(so long as we don't go folding when we flop top set, or any set for that matter).

OK, I respect your opinion. So, what are the reasons to open limp from EP? Which hands are you limping?

Additionally, are you honestly telling me that a player who chooses to never limp in poker has a "horrible" mindset. Come on really, that's what you think? If not limping 88 UTG is "horrible", I'm totally cool with that.

And the whole table is not 200bb deep. UTG, LP and SB only have 100bb.

Those are easy spots to be in because you can check and fold. I play 88 because I'm trying to make a set against bad players that will do things like pay me off and give me free cards. This is why online is different. Opponents there aren't going to pay off nearly as much. In live play even the nits get paid off way too much.

88 is an easy hand to play after the flop in these games.


I don't know what books you're talking about. Do they recommend having that range against a table full of weak players?

^^OK, that's a good point. I'm still not limping 88 UTG though!

If you have a serial 3-better behind you, I'd prefer to limp in EP with marginal holdings. I will also limp hands that have a decent chance of picking up a lot of equity on the flop. But whereas I'll l/c 88 UTG, I'd limp/fold JTs. But I play much wider in EP than you do.

What I find 'horrible' isn't necessarily the play, but the static mindset. God knows you don't need to play 88 UTG to be profitable at LLSNL, and your UTG range is very easy to play. It's also extremely easy to play against.

Also, we are playing 200 deep against the raiser. Even so, he only raised <9x, which isn't going to push anyone off of a hand. Given how much guys at this stake love to l/c, I'm even happier calling the raise with the expectation that there will be another 1-2 callers behind. Beyond that, there are no real decisions to make. The hand plays itself.

Also even in limit games with bad players, limping in with pocket pairs UTG is more profitable than folding. And that's limit, where you can't even make big bets and go all-in.

I see what you're saying. I guess I should start all my statements with "Generally" or end it with "...but it depends" So I'll say this, "Generally, i don't open limp, but it depends." and "Generally, my UTG raising range is TT+, AK, AQs, but it depends." Of course things in poker aren't always set in stone.

Yes, you're right about the 9x. I was thinking 1/2. I love discussions like this becasue it helps all of us improve. After thinking about it more, you're right that calling is fine to set mine. The players left to act likely aren't going to 3B.

I'm fine with preflop since we're deep against raiser (getting good ~24x implied odds), in position (easier to get paid off postflop), he's raising from the blinds (which hopefully means his hand is leaning towards an overpair), plus it looks like he can get money in light.

I also bomb the flop.

I think this is a trivial call to the shove. SPR is a very small ~3 against both these stacks on a very drawy board where they can both easily have very good but worse hands. And in the case where we happen to be behind, whatever, suckout 1/3 of the time.

GcluelessNLnoobG