V1 ($520): Mid-20s male Asian, I doubled up through him earlier in the session after rivering the nut straight when he slowplayed a flopped set. After the hand he kept saying how he regretted slowplaying. He has fast played at least one monster since. Loves to attack weakness (typically <0.5 pot sized bets), but usually only bets with a hand that has some value.

V2: ($450): 50s white male, will donk out with TPNK+, and will c/c with almost any draw for most prices. Has also been known to call with second pair sometimes. Sees about 40% of flops.

Hero ($500): Young, of Indian appearance, doubled up through V1 early in the session, has been playing somewhat tight (about 15% hands), but besides the hand against V1, has not seen a showdown, instead taking down pots OTF or OTT with 3/4 pot sized bets. Has been at the table for about 1.5 hours

Relevant stacks:

$1/3 NL (8 handed)

BB V1 ($520)

SB V2 ($450)

UTG Hero ($500)

Hero is dealt J J

Hero raises to $15 (standard raise), folds to V1 and V2 who call.

Flop ($41) J 6 4
Checked to hero who bets $25, V2 calls, V1 C/R to $75.

Hero?

I intentionally made this bet small because I expected V1 to attack my smaller than normal sized CBet. I was also expecting V2 to fold because the board is relatively dry. If V2 folded I was planning to just flat V1's C/R and try to let him hang himself. However it is highly likely that V2 has some sort of straight draw. Additionally, V2's call means that V1's C/R now carries a LOT of strength, I am putting him on two pair+ now, since V1 doesn't care about V2's call apparently.


Should I raise, and risk shutting out V2, or flat and hope to lure along V2, despite him having odds to draw?

I don't expect V1 to fold regardless of my action.

I don't mind a call here because we get to act last OTT, the board is pretty dry and it's not going check/check... that's for damn sure. So we can let him bluff off a little more and raise the turn.

Do you like to gamble? If so go with the higher variance play and flat call. What SD can V2 have, 57? He can call your $25 cbet with 77-TT and maybe the extra $50 if you flat but that is optimistic. V1 looks like 66 or 44 and obv willing to play for stacks. I do not think you would be wrong to raise here as pushing V2 out of the pot is a completely viable line but a lower variance play.
How often is V1's raise air? The higher the % of air the more I like a flat.

3bet, call shove. do not flat here. if v2 has 75, it's a disaster if you let him draw cheap.

With V2 calling my raise, V1 never has air here since he is also aware of V2's fishiness.

At worst it's a OESD. I think you can call, maybe bring V2 with you, and still get stacks in.

V1 looks strong here. V2 is likely not going further with any 1 pair hands/draws OTT, but has SDs in his range that you shouldn't let him draw to. I don't think the extra 50 from V2 is worth him drawing.

Remember that V2 will check most turns, V1 will bet, and itll be you to act again before V2 who realistically is not calling any more OTT that he wouldnt call a raise with OTF.

The only merit to calling is to not blow V1 off his hand if he holds a good jack. You can probably still play for stacks, there are very few scare cards which is nice.

yeah but 75 is going to be a small part of his range, what if he folds 75 to a three bet and they both fold? or he folds a slough of other random hands. I'm not saying it's wrong to raise, this just might be a spot to extract more value by playing IP though. If we were OOP I would bet/raise/raise/raise.

Just flat, use pos. You'll have 410 left to get in on 2 streets. Say Old Man Villain folds, pot will be 220 on turn action. I wouldn't leave a big amount for the river though, cards might fall that halt action or Asian Villain might realize he's behind and slow down, definitely raising the turn no matter the amount Asian Villain bets. If he checks I bet about 120-150 into the 220 pot (if a brick falls, if it gets wetter I'd bet more like a PSB).

Ok how many times do we flop top set and get check raised! I would not listen to anyone talking about shoving. I am calling ALL DAY. this is a perfect board. Also he is either check raising you with air or a hand he is going to stack off with regardless.

If it's air you are getting no money from him with a shove. If it's stack time, let him stack. Also if it's air he might fire another bullet on the turn.

Honestly i am never raising this, like never ever. His line is SO strong. Think about what we would be saying to you if you check raised the original raiser and then he came back over the top of you?

For the love of god tell me you didnt raise!

I would somewhat agree with you if we had 44 or 66, but the fact is that we have JJ, and the odds he is c/r just a lone J is quite rare. Why are we going to allow ourselves to have someone draw with a decent percentage of their range here?

Do you honestly think Jx is going to call 50 more? 6x? 4x? 77-TT? Unlikely.

The only hands that are going to call 50 more here is 53/75 and maybe 78.

Also Love Eli's advice on turn. honestly though i tank a bit on flop and make a "crying call" I do not want this guy checking to me on the turn. I want him to either blow me away with his bluff or stack off when a scare card hits.

And a lot of you guys are really terrified for some reason about an oesd. Old Man Villain probably isn't even calling the 15 pre with a hand that makes a straight draw here. I'm not worried about him in the least.

A straight draw is by far old man's likely holding based on his play so far, with a lower chance of him having a pair below J (he would donk with J+ every time). He plays so loose passive pre that a straight draw is easily possible.

I dont care what he has, it doesn't matter. I keep reading this

"I intentionally made this bet small because I expected V1 to attack my smaller than normal sized CBet. "

And this J 6 4

And wonder what the convo is about? Why are we raising? To charge the oesd? any dude who is willing to check raise you with an oesd is willing to stack off when he misses, but only if you let him.

It would be sick if he is holding a draw and hits OTT because I am most likely getting the money in. Against V1 alone we are 100% committed from here on out in my mind. And I firmly believe we get stacks in with V1. But if V2 is on a draw and with one card to come before we jam, I'm not too worried here.
Though I do agree after thinking about it more that not too many hands can call here, so we aren't losing a ton of value, I'm sure of that. I think we can potentially squeeze a little more value out in this spot and bump our win rate a tad. Again, only because we are IP.

Hero raised UTG, and it folded around to Old Villain in the SB. You really think he's going to call another $14 with 7-5 in an oop, HU pot (not knowing what BB will do)? Passive doesn't necessarily mean horrible. I think it's insane that you're willing to lose Asian Villain here because you're hellbent on being scared of an oesd.

Sooooo this.

definitely a call here, you don't have to get your whole stack in for everyone afraid of the oesd, if he's raising here he is almost always betting the turn, if a straight comes he might check to you then you can check/call/raise river.

I'm not to worried about V2 donk as his most likely holding are AK, AQ, AJ, KJ, QJ J10, J9, J8, A6 suited, A4 suited, 34, 45, while V1s most likely over pair 66, 44, J6, J4, 46.

Definitely call raise turn if blank hits, if a scary card comes and you're scared fold but your missing so much value with a raise and if V1 is capable and even semi good he's going to fold to your raise.

With these stacks, we'll never be able to setup an SPR we're comfortable stacking off with. So I'm cool with just opening to a standard raise and trying to limit the field and (hopefully) end things on the flop. I also don't think it's horrible to limp and simply setmine, which is something I might do at a super loose / payoff station table.

I pot the flop. It's been checked to us so it can easily look like we're simply betting big to take down the pot with air. And if we want to play for stacks, we're typically going to have to be on the bigger side here. I guess V1 might attack weakness if we bet smaller (and I see that's why we did so) so I don't absolutely hate it, but he still might attack the big bet anyways.

I would just flat the raise. We'd love to bring along V2. Board is super dry and there's only one good draw (75/53) and that seems a little unlikely. Plus we don't blow V1 off his bluff if he has air (which he may continue with). If villains actually have a good hand we'll easily be able to get stacks in on later streets.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Just flat here and get stacks in on the turn. Even if one of them manages a gutter or BS OESD you are never drawing dead and have 11 outs to FH or quads. I understand that the 40% vpip 40 year old white guy could have ATC having that OESD easily in his range but he's probably cognitive enough to realize you two have been playing more poker than others. It's not impossible for him to turn hands into a bluff here or overplay the case jack. Pretty easy situation, if they get there on the turn - tough titty.