Really not sure what the river play should be. Nitty check, jam or small bet?

Bb is the main villan, probably a bit loose pre, maybe a more active omc, and he has been running hot.

Utg limp, I raise 5bb with KJo no diamonds from lj, utg, sb and bb calls.

Flop J93dxx (~20bb), checks to me I bet 12bb, bb and utg call.

Turn Kd (J93dxxKd ~56bb), Checks to me I bet 33bb , only bb calls.

River 7d, bdfd comes in (J93dxxKd7d ~120bb), bb checks dark. I have 120bb behind. Bb covers me

I'm confused here, wanted to check but not sure if it is too nitty. We are 120bb deep otr and i would hate getting raised. Even if I wanted to bet, not sure if it is too thin since only KT and KQ are calling candidates (guessing he plays lower 2 pairs faster), also am not sure of sizing. Check, jam or small bet?

Thanks. I Will post results in 48 hours.

Definitely don’t jam, I can’t see you getting called by worse.

Maybe bet 30-40bbs to target all Kx & 2p holdings and fold to a raise. Don’t stress too much about being exploited, this river is super under-bluffed at low stakes (and especially from the player type you mentioned), if this happens you can comfortably fold.


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You may want to consider posting things in terms of $ instead of bb; I know I prefer the former, it's possible others might too (given the few responses you've gotten).

Way too early to be raising KJo in the LJ, imo. I think I'd actually just open fold this early.

Multiway bloated pot with a fairly crap hand is pretty gross but standard result, imo, although somehow we ended up in position so I guess we've got that going for us.

I think the SPR is 7 so I'm definitely not looking to get stacks in play, so I'd probably lean to betting smaller on the flop.

I think I'd lean to checking back the turn. Two flop callers and the main draw of QT got there and I'd hate to be blown off my fullhouse equity.

Yeah, very awkward river spot with only a PSB left. Overall, I think we hear from most two pears earlier. So we're targetting very few hands (KQ/KT, maybe a passive preflop AK). T8 also got there on the river. I guess you could argue for a very small bet/fold knowing that it is highly unlikely he is bluff/raising with worse with this much left. But I might just check back here (although it is possible that is missing value).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Well, he can probably have KTs for 2 combos, good chance he can have KQs and KQo for 8 combos. He might not even call all of these hands anymore though

He could have Td8d, Td9d, 9d8d, maybe Ad9d. He could have QT, or a set, but you likely here from that. Maybe AdQd, AdTd.

Maybe bet half pot to 60% pot on river. I like going for thin value at these stakes.

Thanks for feedback all. Also noted on posting in $ instead of bb.

In game I bet 50bb ($150 into pot of ~$360), villan Jammed and I tank folded ($200ish still in my stack). He showed T8dd.

Good to see that the consensus is to b/for small. Thought I was value owning myself after I got raised.

Preflop is too loose. We would rarely RFI KJo in LJ, and only sometimes in HJ. KJs is appropriate. And that's to RFI. We are now ISO raising. KJo is no go here.

Flop bet is too big multiway. Something like 5-7bb is better.

Turn bet is decent. We want to stay at 1/2 pot or smaller in these big multiway pots.



River I'm just checking behind. Keep in mind that dark checks while they want to make us attack.......actually strengthen V's checking range substantially because they are now checking 100% of their value hands.

We have made two large bets (for multiway) that started with 3 others on flop, 2 others on turn. So, with the large bets, we have funneled our opponents into the top end of their collective range.

Combine that with dark check strengthening the checking range.....I'm just checking behind


I'd definitely bet JJ here. More than likely 99. And obviously flushes and straights. We have plenty of value hands we can go 3 streets with. 2p doesn't need to.

BB would not check dark with a diamond draw. You’re almost always good here. Bet 1/3 pot.

This is what I like to do in my head when figuring out what hands to go for value here. This is a typically 200bb LJ open. Since we are ISO, you may or may not have the lower suited Ax.

Green = Flush and/or straights
Yellow = Sets
Red = 2p, TPTK and Overpairs


As you can see when we put it in visual format, we have a lot of very strong hands here. And while top 2 seems like a big hand.....it really isn't at the top end when we look at what we can have here a lot of times.

Combine that with you adding in 12 combos preflop of KJo that we shouldn't have.....and we get into value owning ourself a ton here against a V's range that has been strengthened via multiway.

I'm sure I missed or starred something incorrectly at some point. But you get the idea.

I also thought a draw was way less likely because of this, but op confirmed that’s exactly what V did.


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Yeah I posted before looking at results.
Surprised to see that he checked dark with diamonds… would still discount diamonds versus a random person although I guess that read didn’t hold true for this guy… still, there are more combos of KQ/K9 than 9xdd/3xdd/T8dd, and I assume V fastplays QT and sets on earlier streets. I’m still happy bet/folding for 1/3pot.

It's always interesting with Players who dark check regularly. IMO they are typically on a (weak) draw but don't want to bet into the draw when it is made since they don't think they will get paid. So they just hope that they will get bet into and can x/c, which they are more than wiling to do with 'all' their hands including those that aren't associated with the draw .. like a straight/set here.

I think I would go bigger OTT and just check back this River .. GL

PS .. I didn't see the results before I posted

Already noticed a mistake. Can't have AKdd. But doesn't change much.

Isn’t it more important to visualize V’s range rather than our own when deciding whether to value bet or check? Our range is essentially irrelevant to the decision (many live Villain’s don’t care about our range they’re just playing their cards)

What is important to me is to look at Vs continuing range versus our bet (say we bet 30% pot) and see whether more than 50% of hands in Vs continuing range are worse than ours. If so we have a profitable bet.

Not when we block a ton of his calling range with a K and J.

And no, I don't agree in this situation with that assessment. Unless we know that V is a complete maniac or calling station.......you're just going to justify and talk yourself into triple barreling into a pot that was 4 handed.....with a hand that is at the very bottom of your value range as well as blocking his calling range we beat.

That's not going to be very profitable long term except against very specific villains. And even then, you have to be correct a lot more than you're wrong on your read of that specific villain.


Also, I am looking at his range vs our hand as well as our range. His calling range is very narrow and our value range is very wide. Hence needing to trim the fat. And while Top 2 seems like a big hand.....when we look at our range....it's closer to the bottom of our value range.

We block flop top pair and we block turn top pair.


What are we hoping V calls 3 barrels with? J9, KQ, AJ, QJ.......all that we block.


We block all his calling range we beat, and unblock most of his value calls.


Blockers are *huge* in multiway pots. Sometimes overrated HU. But multiway pots, blockers are exponentially more important.



We unblock all flushes, unblock straights, unblock all sets except JJ and KK. And if we are hoping he still calls with something like AJ or any J....he can have 77 here as well using that logic.


Just a bad hand to triple barrel with on this runout.

Yes I understand all that… KJ is likely a more profitable value bet than KK because we block top pairs. And JJ is better than KJ. Etc.

Villain check/called flop, check/called turn, and blind checked river on a very wet board. Most live villains will never have 99/33/QT after taking those actions. Given that I would discount those combos to almost zero.

V can’t have 77 after calling turn.

We lose to 9xdd (A9,Q9,T9,98), T8dd, 3xdd (A3,43,53) which is 8 combos.

Hands that can call a 1/3psb on river are: KQ (8 combos), KT (8 combos), maybe AJ (8 combos), which is 24 combos

That is the thought process I would go through at the table (comparing my hand to Vs range). And yes, I have taken into account blockers in the above.

Obv if he calls all 24 combos and only raises with those 8 combos then a river bet way +EV. Even if V doesn’t have all KT due to flop call (though I would say that most live villains are calling a half pot flop bet with overcard and a gutter to the nuts) or he doesn’t call a river bet with all his AJ, I think there is still more worse value than better value so a river bet is justified.

I completely missed that villain checked dark on the river, which makes this a much easier check back for me now.

GcluelessHHreadingnoobG

I get where everyone is coming from with their dark check assumptions.


For me personally, I treat dark checks like flop donk bets. Most V's are fairly specific and unbalanced. But not all V's do the same thing.

Some will dark check draws. Some will dark check weak hands. Some will dark check strong hands.


But rarely do they balance properly. They tend to stick with what they are comfortable donking or dark checking with.




So, like flop donks, it's a matter of figuring out what hands they like to dark check with. Which requires several shown down hands or more.





When we don't have this info, I just revert to good theory fundamentals. Which would be that his checking ranges is significantly stronger. Any other assumptions would just be playing a guessing game like treating a new player that's 60yrs old different than a 20yr old. We are just hoping we guess right. And I personally just don't play that type of strategy as it's too much to think about and hope to get right in a game that's already complicated enough.

"Most V's will never"

"V can't have"


These are assumptions that keep our BB/hr under 20bb in LLSNL.



And how we talk ourselves into making choices like not checking back this river. We talk ourselves into V "never" having hands that beat us. And "sometimes" having hands we beat.

What charts are you looking at saying KJo is rarely RFI from LJ? Looking at GTO Wizard, it's mostly a raise in raked games. Less so in unraked games where suited connectors are preferred. I think it's a pretty easy open in LJ in softer games. I think if youbhave a significant edge, a lot of hands that mix raise and fold pre as a rfi should be raised at full frequency.

I like the iso, but it is thin. Some players are limp calling with AJ, AQ, KQ. I even see AK limp called occasionally at 1/2 and 1/3. So vs certain players you might limp behind or even fold.

At the end of the day, vs a typical limp calling range, if you hit top pair, you are likely good with KJ and might consider getting 2 streets of value. Plus, you're in position with what is likely a weak player you will be able to bully out of the pot a decent chunk of the time. You also can have a decent amount of draws and situations where your overcard outs may be good. Spots where you can rep flushes that come in if you have the right suits.

Of course you have to be cautious and sometimes wave the white flag or go into check/check call mode. I think it works out often enough for it to be worth it.

My evolution in thinking of KJo as a poker hand has been 1. Ooo, nice hand! 2. Oh, it's a terrible hand. 3. It's trashy, but if the table is soft, I at least have a razor thin edge with it.

I like your play at these stakes. One thing I have noticed is that people who crush live poker when facing recreational players and bad regs often go for disrespectfully thin value. And they have bet/folding for value in their arsenal. You have to adjust against stronger and tricky players who will have traps and bluffs here. If that's the type of player you are facing, you should generally avoid betting small on the river in position and opening the action back up.

First of all, 20bb per hour is a super impressive win-rate at live 1/2 and 1/3.

Secondly, you think V is sticky enough to check/call two streets with 77 on J93K but is not sticky enough to call three streets with AJ/QJ? Do you see how those assumptions are incongruous?

I agree… My default is to open KJo in LJ even over a limp. Many players are limp calling trash we dominate like KTo/K9o/QJo/JTo. There is lots of value to be had when we flop top pair. But it’s definitely bottom of range, I fold pre with QJo/KTo.

Thanks all, read through the responses.


Gotcha, from the pic it seems kj is bottom-ish of my range when getting to the river.

As for preflop, I guess it can go either way. Players on my left weren't 3 betting light and I was stuck a little so I went with it.

Sure, you could get thin value against a few hands in his range, but his actions indicate a draw of which most got there. You could b/f small if you are certain V never bluffs. I can't imagine checking back is bad. Jamming is bad.

Check >= B/f >>>>>>>>>>>> JAM.

Just a note beyond draws, the last 3 times I've had top 2 in situations like this with no draws V has shown up with the case 2nd set (ie JJ in your hand). Certainly in OMC range here.

Late to the party but I disagree with that.

I've seen that check in the dark pretty often with draws. The other most likely stuff is obviously low/medium value made hands. When both FD and T8 comes in and I don't see those medium strength hands be able to call again, I check the river.