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Old 10-10-2021, 05:52 PM   #1
ChaosInEquilibrium
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1-3-T JJ facing 2x pot turn shove in 3b pot.

1-3 match the stack.

Villain 1 is pro player. Apparently plays bigger because he brought about 5k in big chips to the 1/3 game and would add on whenever the big stack would win a pot. Villain knows I think about ranges because of a comment I made earlier.

Villain 2 is main spot at the table. 60/15 semi-whale, calling raises pre to any amount <$100 with a too-wide range.

2.7k effective vs V1, 800 effective vs V2.

V1 posts 10 straddle, Loose Passive limps EP, V2 limps MP, Hero opens JJ to $75 on the button (I open this large because I am targeting V2, my normal open would be to $50. Also my previous $30-50 opens were frequently getting called in 4-5 spots). V1 3bets straddle to 325. Folds to Hero who calls.

Flop: T82 ($670)

V1 cbets $225, hero calls (as I would do with my entire continuing range).

Turn: T82[2] ($1125)

V1 counts down his stack and after a moment of deliberation announces all in for about 2.2k.

Last edited by ChaosInEquilibrium; 10-10-2021 at 05:59 PM.
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Old 10-10-2021, 07:49 PM   #2
PZ2
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Re: 1-3-T JJ facing 2x pot turn shove in 3b pot.

This comes down to a read - do you think he could have 3 bet you light given the table dynamics? If yes, how light? A2s? J9s? ATs? JTs?

I feel he doesn’t have a set, as they wouldn’t play this way…it’s possible his T8 got counterfeit. He could also possibly hold suited spades and an over card. The overbet just feels like he has equity but wants you to fold. So…do the opposite?

Last edited by PZ2; 10-10-2021 at 08:17 PM.
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Old 10-10-2021, 07:55 PM   #3
ChaosInEquilibrium
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Re: 1-3-T JJ facing 2x pot turn shove in 3b pot.

I don’t know how light he 3bet. Definitely no more than top 10% of hands. I did open 7x the straddle over the whales limp… I feel he should be cognizant that this represents a much tighter range than a standard BTN open. Like for me this represents AJ+, KQ, suited broadways and 88+. I don’t know if he knows that, though

Last edited by ChaosInEquilibrium; 10-10-2021 at 08:06 PM.
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Old 10-10-2021, 08:51 PM   #4
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Re: 1-3-T JJ facing 2x pot turn shove in 3b pot.

Also, should have mentioned in my OP this was the 3rd time I saw V1 3bet in 1.5 hrs at the table. Not much data. The other 2 3bets were squeeze plays that resulted in preflop folds.

I also saw the following showdown:

V2 whale opens MP over straddle to 40, V1 calls in straddle.
Flop: KQ8r. Check, V2 whale bets 60, V1 calls. Turn 2x. Check, check. River: 8. Check, V2 bets 100, V2 x/r to 400. V1 calls.
V1 and V2 both show KT. V1 comments “you should known I only have J-hi or 8x”, kind of berating the whale for making the call.
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Old 10-11-2021, 12:05 AM   #5
matzah_ball
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Re: 1-3-T JJ facing 2x pot turn shove in 3b pot.

JJ that blocks bluffs. Fold.

Red QQ maybe.
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Old 10-11-2021, 01:01 AM   #6
RobertUCooper
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Re: 1-3-T JJ facing 2x pot turn shove in 3b pot.

So first for theory, the preflop ranges are weird because of the dynamics so I think a bunch depends on how wide you are iso'ing the button and therefore how wide you are defending vs. 3 bet. I think your defend range is going to be about 5-7%ish, but it depends on things, like are you going to pure 4 bet QQ+/AK or not (especially if you trap AA sometimes), are you going to pure call/pure fold/split a hand like ATs, etc. How OOL do you think he is getting or is he a nit here, etc.

So given ranges flop you don't want to have a raising range which I'm sure you're aware of. On turn JJ is a pure call unless its your exact suits blocking both flush draws in which case solver mixes 50/50 based on inputs I gave. You have some other hands to snap off turn with (Txcc, 88, TT, QQ) and then closer hands (JJ, AK/AQ with nfd, AT no flush draw).

When it comes to him I think it is super obvious, but this is a spot where his flop betting size is on point but on turn he wants to bet 60%ish turn 60%ish river, going a little larger on turn is definitely fine but jamming solver will almost never do and a human definitely shouldn't do either because the size makes no sense.

So exploitatively depends if this feels like KK trying to fold out equity or AQcc trying to maximize fold equity knowing he always has outs.

It's funny because was thinking about it before the solver and I really like calling QQ+, Tx with clubs, and all JJ combos besides your specific one and folding your combo. But if you call/fold can't be a huge mistake either way.

Also one other thing to note, if he uses a normal size the solver is going to jam hands like red JJ for equity denial and its not intuitive for a human who views JJ as a bluff catcher but I agree with the solver
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Old 10-11-2021, 01:06 AM   #7
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Re: 1-3-T JJ facing 2x pot turn shove in 3b pot.

If V1 is a pro player, then he knows that he should be defending his straddle quite widely. He shouldn't be 3-betting his entire defend range of course, but I feel like JJ is definitely ahead of his 3-bet range. Given a competent V, it's an easy 4 bet for value pre. On a macro level, it will also disincline V1 from 3-betting your opens light.

As played, I'm inclined to call but it's gross. The turn bet is obviously 2x pot and the definition of polarizing. I'm having a really hard time imagining V plays sets or value overpairs this way. If you're a competent TAG, which is my impression based on the advice you've given in the past, V knows that you're capable of making big folds and your range is capped. His story doesn't make much sense, but if he's throwing around this much money at 1-3 then he probably thinks he can run over the table and it doesn't matter.

I'd also be looking to change tables to avoid spots like these.
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Old 10-11-2021, 02:24 AM   #8
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Re: 1-3-T JJ facing 2x pot turn shove in 3b pot.

This specific hand is probably a fold due to having such bad blockers but I think it's pretty close. Def not folding red jacks, prob not folding red and black jacks, so this'll prob be the strongest hand I fold.
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Old 10-11-2021, 06:32 AM   #9
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Re: 1-3-T JJ facing 2x pot turn shove in 3b pot.

Given all the reads, I don't think V1 is a pro, but rather another whale at your table. Betting line, as even the solver thinks, makes no sense. I'd call and reload.

In the future though, stop talking about poker at the table.
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Old 10-11-2021, 09:48 AM   #10
ChaosInEquilibrium
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Re: 1-3-T JJ facing 2x pot turn shove in 3b pot.

Maybe pro is an overreach because of very limited data. Perhaps I can just say “thinking player”? His KT showdown shows that he’s creative and likes to put people in tough spots. He’s also probably one of the tighter players at the table. Avg VPIP of table might be 35-40%, and he and I are close to 25%.

Thanks all for feedback.
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Old 10-11-2021, 10:02 AM   #11
ChaosInEquilibrium
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Re: 1-3-T JJ facing 2x pot turn shove in 3b pot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertUCooper View Post
So first for theory, the preflop ranges are weird because of the dynamics so I think a bunch depends on how wide you are iso'ing the button and therefore how wide you are defending vs. 3 bet. I think your defend range is going to be about 5-7%ish, but it depends on things, like are you going to pure 4 bet QQ+/AK or not (especially if you trap AA sometimes), are you going to pure call/pure fold/split a hand like ATs, etc. How OOL do you think he is getting or is he a nit here, etc.

So given ranges flop you don't want to have a raising range which I'm sure you're aware of. On turn JJ is a pure call unless its your exact suits blocking both flush draws in which case solver mixes 50/50 based on inputs I gave. You have some other hands to snap off turn with (Txcc, 88, TT, QQ) and then closer hands (JJ, AK/AQ with nfd, AT no flush draw).

When it comes to him I think it is super obvious, but this is a spot where his flop betting size is on point but on turn he wants to bet 60%ish turn 60%ish river, going a little larger on turn is definitely fine but jamming solver will almost never do and a human definitely shouldn't do either because the size makes no sense.

So exploitatively depends if this feels like KK trying to fold out equity or AQcc trying to maximize fold equity knowing he always has outs.

It's funny because was thinking about it before the solver and I really like calling QQ+, Tx with clubs, and all JJ combos besides your specific one and folding your combo. But if you call/fold can't be a huge mistake either way.

Also one other thing to note, if he uses a normal size the solver is going to jam hands like red JJ for equity denial and its not intuitive for a human who views JJ as a bluff catcher but I agree with the solver
Thanks for running this.

Agree his turn sizing doesn’t make a ton of sense. I ran solver input and it had him 2x pot shoving 0% of the time. Therefore I couldn’t get useful output for my response to his line — solver had me folding 100% of my combo of JJ facing 2x pot, but I sorta suspect this output is gibberish because solver gives 0 weight to this branch of the tree. I did give the 66% pot options on turn/river and I noted that my combo of JJ was a mix between call/fold on turn facing 66% pot. Is this what you found as well?

Agree it’s a weird spot due to the dynamic with the whale and due to my large open over 2 limps. Thinking back, I wonder if his perception of my opening range might be wider than my opening range actually is because he may just assume I open a standard BTN range, when in reality I’m opening narrower than usual due to 3-blind configuration and 2 limpers. OTOH he possibly noticed the 7x size is larger than I’d been using in the past. So, maybe he’s made the correct deduction on my range being rather tighter. IDK it’s a weird dynamic and I wish we had more history so that I could be more confident he knows how I’m playing and visa versa.

Just in a vacuum, if I’m opening AJ+,KQ,88+,QTs+,T9s+,ATs,KTs on the BTN and face a 3bet at this big 4.5x size, how wide should I be defending? Is there a set percentage of my range that I should defend? I feel that hands like ATs,KJs,AQo are cusp hands. I probably would defend ATs,AQo (but don’t love it), and fold KJs-, but I have no idea if that’s right. IDK if I should defend JTs,QJs or not.

Last edited by ChaosInEquilibrium; 10-11-2021 at 10:22 AM.
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Old 10-11-2021, 10:09 AM   #12
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Re: 1-3-T JJ facing 2x pot turn shove in 3b pot.

I assume you donít have results because you folded?
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Old 10-11-2021, 10:18 AM   #13
ChaosInEquilibrium
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Re: 1-3-T JJ facing 2x pot turn shove in 3b pot.

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Originally Posted by aftrglw View Post
I assume you don’t have results because you folded?
Yep, I folded due to the suits of my jacks.
Debated posting this hand with red/black Jacks since I was most curious of the response there. Mostly curious of what people think this turn sizing is representative of because I was honestly surprised by it. Totally expected the 2/3 sizing…
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Old 10-11-2021, 11:16 AM   #14
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Re: 1-3-T JJ facing 2x pot turn shove in 3b pot.

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Originally Posted by ChaosInEquilibrium View Post
Yep, I folded due to the suits of my jacks.
Debated posting this hand with red/black Jacks since I was most curious of the response there. Mostly curious of what people think this turn sizing is representative of because I was honestly surprised by it. Totally expected the 2/3 sizing¬Ö
Fair enough. Thanks for posting, it was an interesting spot to mull over. Turn sizing seems like an odd way to get value and obviously designed to maximize fold equity. I feel like it has to be a call as he has too many bluffs and semi bluffs here, but this is a non-trivial amount for me and I cant say I’d have it in me with my own money on the line.
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Old 10-11-2021, 11:24 AM   #15
ChaosInEquilibrium
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Re: 1-3-T JJ facing 2x pot turn shove in 3b pot.

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Originally Posted by aftrglw View Post
If V1 is a pro player, then he knows that he should be defending his straddle quite widely. He shouldn't be 3-betting his entire defend range of course, but I feel like JJ is definitely ahead of his 3-bet range. Given a competent V, it's an easy 4 bet for value pre. On a macro level, it will also disincline V1 from 3-betting your opens light.
This is what threw my head in a blender. If he's 3betting a standard range facing a BTN open (no limpers), then JJ is a 4bet. But I opened 7x, which is quite big for this game, even over 2 limpers. Then he 3bet 4.5x, which is also quite large for this game. So I feel his range should be quite tight (closer to 5% than 10%), but, this may not reflect the way he is actually playing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aftrglw View Post
As played, I'm inclined to call but it's gross. The turn bet is obviously 2x pot and the definition of polarizing. I'm having a really hard time imagining V plays sets or value overpairs this way. If you're a competent TAG, which is my impression based on the advice you've given in the past, V knows that you're capable of making big folds and your range is capped. His story doesn't make much sense, but if he's throwing around this much money at 1-3 then he probably thinks he can run over the table and it doesn't matter.
Yeah, I think his line is pretty wild. Sets (turned boats) aren't consistent with the line. Overpairs maybe (KK/QQ more likely, I think AA uses a smaller sizing), weaker Ace highs maybe (AQ) and whatever flush draws he may have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aftrglw View Post
I'd also be looking to change tables to avoid spots like these.
Overall the table is pretty great with two loose spots and several loose passive fit or fold types. But yeah, it does suck to have a good player at the table. My position is kind of nice given I'm 2 to the left of the main spot, 3 to the left of the second spot (who is 2k effective), but, unfortunately, also 3 to the right of the main villain.

Last edited by ChaosInEquilibrium; 10-11-2021 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 10-11-2021, 12:52 PM   #16
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Re: 1-3-T JJ facing 2x pot turn shove in 3b pot.

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Originally Posted by ChaosInEquilibrium View Post
Yeah, I think his line is pretty wild. Sets (turned boats) aren't consistent with the line. Overpairs maybe (KK/QQ more likely, I think AA uses a smaller sizing), weaker Ace highs maybe (AQ) and whatever flush draws he may have.
Agreed, boats or quads don¬’t make sense... I did consider KK/QQ where you could sus out what was happening and still inadvertently call with the worst hand. However, you could have all of the boats and he¬’d only be folding out the hands he¬’s ahead of. It¬’s just such an odd line that bluffs are really what make the most sense to me.

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Overall the table is pretty great with two loose spots and several loose passive fit or fold types. But yeah, it does suck to have a good player at the table. My position is kind of nice given I'm 2 to the left of the main spot, 3 to the left of the second spot (who is 2k effective), but, unfortunately, also 3 to the right of the main villain.
Nice, hope you still showed a profit then for the night! Can I ask where this was?

Last edited by aftrglw; 10-11-2021 at 12:53 PM. Reason: Location question
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Old 10-11-2021, 01:36 PM   #17
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Re: 1-3-T JJ facing 2x pot turn shove in 3b pot.

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Nice, hope you still showed a profit then for the night! Can I ask where this was?
This was an afternoon game at a card club in TX. Game is rake-free, and club charges a flat $12 hourly rate. Very good deal for players. Will PM more information. Yes, I thankfully showed a nice profit in a couple hours of play.

After comments ITT, I kind of wish I could have this hand back though. Honestly, my game is rusty and I’m not comfortable when the pots get really big.
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Old 10-11-2021, 04:54 PM   #18
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Re: 1-3-T JJ facing 2x pot turn shove in 3b pot.

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After comments ITT, I kind of wish I could have this hand back though. Honestly, my game is rusty and Iím not comfortable when the pots get really big.
I wouldn't sweat it too much, it's much easier to look at hands objectively after the fact. I've just started getting back into poker too, as I stopped playing when my kids were little to focus on that. It's naturally to be uncomfortable at a 2.7k stack in 1/3 and I would be too... that's pretty deepstacked even for 5/10.
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Old 10-11-2021, 05:03 PM   #19
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Re: 1-3-T JJ facing 2x pot turn shove in 3b pot.

End boss calls, loses, reloads for 1500BB Or wins and asks V1 to grab him some racks.
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Old 10-11-2021, 08:02 PM   #20
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Re: 1-3-T JJ facing 2x pot turn shove in 3b pot.

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Thanks for running this.

Agree his turn sizing doesnít make a ton of sense. I ran solver input and it had him 2x pot shoving 0% of the time. Therefore I couldnít get useful output for my response to his line ó solver had me folding 100% of my combo of JJ facing 2x pot, but I sorta suspect this output is gibberish because solver gives 0 weight to this branch of the tree. I did give the 66% pot options on turn/river and I noted that my combo of JJ was a mix between call/fold on turn facing 66% pot. Is this what you found as well?

Agree itís a weird spot due to the dynamic with the whale and due to my large open over 2 limps. Thinking back, I wonder if his perception of my opening range might be wider than my opening range actually is because he may just assume I open a standard BTN range, when in reality Iím opening narrower than usual due to 3-blind configuration and 2 limpers. OTOH he possibly noticed the 7x size is larger than Iíd been using in the past. So, maybe heís made the correct deduction on my range being rather tighter. IDK itís a weird dynamic and I wish we had more history so that I could be more confident he knows how Iím playing and visa versa.

Just in a vacuum, if Iím opening AJ+,KQ,88+,QTs+,T9s+,ATs,KTs on the BTN and face a 3bet at this big 4.5x size, how wide should I be defending? Is there a set percentage of my range that I should defend? I feel that hands like ATs,KJs,AQo are cusp hands. I probably would defend ATs,AQo (but donít love it), and fold KJs-, but I have no idea if thatís right. IDK if I should defend JTs,QJs or not.
weird spot. i also prefer a fold with this combo but could understand calling. i think the KT hand history/comment was a bit of fps, but very different spot so wouldnt weight that too much here.

couple other thoughts on pre: i think he is probably assuming you arent tightening up much/any at the larger size, but are taking the 2 limpers and 3 blinds into account. i do think he is likely to be tilted towards a more value heavy range here though because 3betting is shutting the whale out of the pot. i also dont think his 3b size is particularly big, its 4.3x and theres a little bit more $ in the pot already because of the limpers, plus the >4x sizes become more common when you are deep. the btn open range you outlined is quite tight, i would probably defend almost all of those hands vs a 4.5x 3b from a non nitty straddle this deep- they are going to be assuming you are opening wider and 3betting accordingly.
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Old 10-11-2021, 09:40 PM   #21
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Re: 1-3-T JJ facing 2x pot turn shove in 3b pot.

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Originally Posted by ChaosInEquilibrium View Post
Thanks for running this.

Agree his turn sizing doesnít make a ton of sense. I ran solver input and it had him 2x pot shoving 0% of the time. Therefore I couldnít get useful output for my response to his line ó solver had me folding 100% of my combo of JJ facing 2x pot, but I sorta suspect this output is gibberish because solver gives 0 weight to this branch of the tree. I did give the 66% pot options on turn/river and I noted that my combo of JJ was a mix between call/fold on turn facing 66% pot. Is this what you found as well?

Agree itís a weird spot due to the dynamic with the whale and due to my large open over 2 limps. Thinking back, I wonder if his perception of my opening range might be wider than my opening range actually is because he may just assume I open a standard BTN range, when in reality Iím opening narrower than usual due to 3-blind configuration and 2 limpers. OTOH he possibly noticed the 7x size is larger than Iíd been using in the past. So, maybe heís made the correct deduction on my range being rather tighter. IDK itís a weird dynamic and I wish we had more history so that I could be more confident he knows how Iím playing and visa versa.

Just in a vacuum, if Iím opening AJ+,KQ,88+,QTs+,T9s+,ATs,KTs on the BTN and face a 3bet at this big 4.5x size, how wide should I be defending? Is there a set percentage of my range that I should defend? I feel that hands like ATs,KJs,AQo are cusp hands. I probably would defend ATs,AQo (but donít love it), and fold KJs-, but I have no idea if thatís right. IDK if I should defend JTs,QJs or not.
It's definitely a weird hand to solve because preflop leads to a lot of assumptions, but I have him shoving 3.5% of his range on the turn

And it depends how polar you think his range is (does he 3 bet 99, AJs types here) for what you should defend with, but personally would 4 bet/fold AQo and mainly call suited broadways (I think AQo plays terrible here postflop), but i would also iso raise/fold 66/98s/A7s types which I don't think you are going to iso with because I wouldn't use that large a size

Anyway, the more I think about it the more I like fold, so many of his natural bluffs have a Jack in them and like 99% of lowstakes is overfolding vs. aggressive action and I don't even think this is an overfold, think its very close in theory, so nice fold
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Old 10-11-2021, 09:41 PM   #22
RobertUCooper
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Re: 1-3-T JJ facing 2x pot turn shove in 3b pot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aftrglw View Post
If V1 is a pro player, then he knows that he should be defending his straddle quite widely. He shouldn't be 3-betting his entire defend range of course, but I feel like JJ is definitely ahead of his 3-bet range. Given a competent V, it's an easy 4 bet for value pre. On a macro level, it will also disincline V1 from 3-betting your opens light.

As played, I'm inclined to call but it's gross. The turn bet is obviously 2x pot and the definition of polarizing. I'm having a really hard time imagining V plays sets or value overpairs this way. If you're a competent TAG, which is my impression based on the advice you've given in the past, V knows that you're capable of making big folds and your range is capped. His story doesn't make much sense, but if he's throwing around this much money at 1-3 then he probably thinks he can run over the table and it doesn't matter.

I'd also be looking to change tables to avoid spots like these.
You don't get better at poker by hiding
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Old 10-11-2021, 10:50 PM   #23
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Re: 1-3-T JJ facing 2x pot turn shove in 3b pot.

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Originally Posted by RobertUCooper View Post
You don't get better at poker by hiding
I tend to agree, but thereís nothing wrong with realizing that youíre in a -EV spot with at a stack depth youíre not comfortable with against a V whoís better than you. Itís okay to work on improving your game until youíre ready for that.
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Old 10-11-2021, 11:39 PM   #24
RobertUCooper
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Re: 1-3-T JJ facing 2x pot turn shove in 3b pot.

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Originally Posted by aftrglw View Post
I tend to agree, but thereís nothing wrong with realizing that youíre in a -EV spot with at a stack depth youíre not comfortable with against a V whoís better than you. Itís okay to work on improving your game until youíre ready for that.
Ya not saying to take -EV game to just gain skill (not that that's necessarily bad either) but if there's like 5 spots and a good reg who bought in deep, prob still +EV
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Old 10-12-2021, 02:12 PM   #25
ChaosInEquilibrium
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Re: 1-3-T JJ facing 2x pot turn shove in 3b pot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertUCooper View Post
It's definitely a weird hand to solve because preflop leads to a lot of assumptions, but I have him shoving 3.5% of his range on the turn

And it depends how polar you think his range is (does he 3 bet 99, AJs types here) for what you should defend with, but personally would 4 bet/fold AQo and mainly call suited broadways (I think AQo plays terrible here postflop), but i would also iso raise/fold 66/98s/A7s types which I don't think you are going to iso with because I wouldn't use that large a size

Anyway, the more I think about it the more I like fold, so many of his natural bluffs have a Jack in them and like 99% of lowstakes is overfolding vs. aggressive action and I don't even think this is an overfold, think its very close in theory, so nice fold
Thanks for your comments.

I like the idea of playing 4bet/fold with AQo. I think if I’m calling AQo too often my range will be too heavily weighted towards Ace highs and it makes my range difficult to defend on certain board textures.

I think I 4bet AKs/KK+ pure, maybe mix in partial combos of traps with AA given that opponent is rather aggressive post. Mix QQ between 4bet/flat. Add AQo as 4bet/fold. Mix 4bet/flat with AKo (maybe pure flat though). Pure fold A5s-A4s (which I missed in my opening range) I presume.

Last edited by ChaosInEquilibrium; 10-12-2021 at 02:25 PM.
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