Live 1/3 - Im fairly new to the table, 500 max BI.

Main villian (V1) just lost a few big pots and is pushing a lot of hands too far now/tilting - table is playing loose passive preflop. Standard open seems to be between 10-15, leaning towards 15. Not a lot of folding to 3bets (i've tried to iso a few spots and have had to fold unfavorable flops two or three times already) hence my upcoming decision for this hand pre.

Effective stacks: ~158BBs / $470
Hero in BU with 5c6c.

UTG+1 limps, V1 limps, folds, CO limps, I'd usually raise here to try to iso etc but as mentioned above this seems to be a 7 card game now and flatting vs this many limps with 56s with only V1 having a deep stack could put me in a spot where I wouldnt have a ton of room to maneuver post flop vs some of the limpers, especially if V1 doesnt ride along. So I use the chip shuffle to RNG and figured i'd limp if chip came up between 12:00-3:00 and it did so i limped, BB limps.


Flop: ($16)
Ad, Qd, 6h
checks around, I check.

Turn: ($16)
Ad, Qd, 6h, 5h
checks to V1 who bets $10, CO calls, I raise to 45, V1 calls, CO tank calls

River: ($161)
Ad Qd 6h 5h 6d

Given V1 description above I think I clearly have some value to be had. Slow played flopped set would most likely have given more action on the turn. Obviously reducing combos of AA/QQ/AQ due to limp pre but discounting AA/QQ/55 given the way turn played.

Checks to me I bet 95.

V1 quickly check raises to 225, CO folds.

I tank and am curious about what we're shoving over top here ever vs what we're calling here given recreational live players doin crazy **** that doesnt always mean absolute strength but still could etc.

Villain's value range that I'm behind is insanely small in my eyes: A6o/A6s (only A6ss) and I dont think Q6ss would be there given frequency of hands villain is playing even for a limp but at the table I figured it's there. The issue i was having was a concern about the rest of their range that would determine whether or not I can shove for value or if I am always calling - which was just a weird spot because as played what else do I have in this spot that would shove if I'm always flatting 100% here? And I guess does that even matter if my actions at this point are split between call or fold 100% of the time with 0 shoves?

Considering the villain i would gladly jam because as you say there is very little value you lose to and this guy would overvalue a flush thinking its the nuts. Its also way more likely that he has a flush vs a bigger boat especially when you have the 5 and 6 in your hand.

Yeah maybe I’m just overthinking it?

I don’t wanna post results just yet either.


with so few combos in his range given card removal and action as played I felt like I can A) take x/r from live rec as only ever being too of value range/monster or B) start adding a bunch of combos I’m well ahead of - and I was having trouble seeing this range as defined as other spots and didn’t want to just say “oh a bunch of FDs do this” and just assign all Kx suited or something that erred too far on the side of padding my estimation that supported my original hypothesis/estimation as it happened

In the moment I figured because of the x/r I could handicap a fairly standard range of draws and add a combo or two of absolute air to account for the possible tilty play and base my calculation off 40% of that total and then go from there to start putting hands into shove or call buckets

Also wanted to be sure i wasn’t absolutely missing something critical and could benefit from outside eyes.

Appreciate the reply ��

Can't think of any worse hand that calls you here as even the one 55 shouldn't be in this line. He shouldn't have anything that beats you but maybe can have some random better 6s full so just call. You can be here with better hands that you trapped in the flop and raised on the turn, a6s 66. You can have 55 ofc but that's a worse hand. A6 maybe you jam to catch 65. I wonder what your bluff jams are to go along with the value? Axh to have a fh blocker and a missed bdfd??

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Thanks everyone for reply - I probably over estimated the range with which I thought villain would call a shove here and because of card removal my at the seat estimate basically had very few hands hands in villains range I was behind and perhaps was overzealous adding flush combos they might spaz out here with. (And even post game analysis, the # of combos I’m behind are very few relative to other value hands here)

anyway I shoved villain calls pretty quickly with A6 - even afterwards I still think 56 here isn’t a huge mistake to shove as there are probably enough crying calls a tilting villain will make with a flush.

Had villain just been in a normal frame of mind id diverge from what I would assume to be closer to optimal and just call here given the ch/raise, even with the quick timing.

I did wonder if it’s ever a fold but even post game analysis makes still makes me think this is at least a call excluding very specific insights about villain say.

If villain is just normal or unknown player i would just call. Im only raising based on villain is tilting maniac

Just get it in. If V is tilting it and pushing with marginal hands, this is a fantastic spot to get extra value.

It's a limped pot. V could get here with A6 or Q6, maybe, but in a limped pot, most players are going to bet out on the flop with 2P when it's a two-tone, somewhat connected board. There aren't many combos of A6s or Q6s possible, just 1 combo of As6s and Qs6s, but who even plays Q6s?

I'd be putting V on KXdd, or maybe something like AQ or A5 - flopped top 2 and slow-played, or turned 2P and wanted to keep your bluffs in, blocks top boat, doesn't believe you'd check flop and raise turn with just the front-door flush draw. Thinks you're betting some AXhh hand. Never putting you on 65.

If V somehow has a better hand, he's just getting my money.

ETA - just read the reveal. So, V had A6. That sucks, but I still think we need to get it in when we make our boat this way, and a tilted V check-raises the river, and we're only losing to one combo of A6s.

A lot of opponents are just going to lead out with their boats when the flush draw comes in, rather than go for the check-raise.

If V is competent and versed in theory, he'll understand that his river check-raise range has to have some showdown value, in case we check back. That range should block our thickest value, so AQ, or especially A5 is a good bluff candidate here. If he has A6 in his range, he has A5 too.

yeah this was where i was at - i was tryin to make sure i properly explained what i was perceiving of villain in my OP and not let post hand info bias presentation.

i dont have access to a GTO Solver that allows me to adjust opponent ranges to sub optimal ranges both pre and post (how that range collapses or shifts with regard to bet / call options) but there's a free one I may try to put this hand through and see what that result looks like.

that said the GTO solver i plugged this into would have 56cc shoving river in a hero as BU and v1 as BB as a way to just capture wider opening ranges but post flop play obviously affects the ranges that arrive at the river so it's applicability is somewhat lessened. also its only 100BBs vs effective stacks being closer to 200. Alternatively if i adjust post flop betting a little bit to keep the ch/raise action in there the BB would be x/raise all in on river and BU is 100% calling 56cc there as well.

Not a justification of my conclusion due to the myriad of different variables in that solution vs the above hand's situation but as far as defining optimal ranges on the river 56cc is both a shove or a call depending on action.

So diverging form optimal in my eyes became a matter of "live players dont have enough bluffs here" vs a sheer comparison of combos villain has that im behind vs combos im ahead and THIS is where I just felt lost - I either have to only give villain the nuts every time and fold the x/raise or I start adding some **** and suddenly 56cc instantly shifts to stacks in the middle.

Maybe the deeper question here is in the responses above regarding just calling here - where do we handicap estimated ranges and therefor in doing so polarizing villain's range extremely to a simplification that doesnt linearly/rationally make sense but arrives at an above consensus that has us now calling 56cc in this spot (eg. villain's range for purposes of analysis is top boat 1 combo AA and one combo 72o say) which would make a call here a very sensible action as a result.

Ultimately i 100% agree here and I dont think in the moment I would be able to find the proper way to diverge from an oversimplified GTO solution which also confirms shoving.

But in post analysis, the ways in which we CAN and SHOULD diverge become rather nuanced and murky in my eyes and Im trying to figure out better ways to intuitively ascertain proper adjustments towards exploitive while still keeping feet firmly planted in linear rational logical approaches.

Im not smart enough to do it but I would love a very thorough analysis that compares a solver analyzing a hand to that same hand but now with node locks etc that account for opponent diverging from theoretical optimal. And then basically weight which decisions are being applied to alter the solution to non-theoretical such that there's a kind of heirarchy of "this is the most critical change with respect to EV of decisions down to the least critical adjustment(s) to make to the tree - just to provide perspective on how to properly approach the and how we can diverge from a theoretical optimal decision tree

So...I don't see how we could ever fold here. Maybe if our tournament life was at stake, or if we had bottom boat with 55 and two opponents were blasting off. Even flat calling is somewhat nitty.

Just because a solver says this is a 100% jam doesn't mean we should jam 100% playing against human opponents. A lot of this is going to come down to our reads.

In-game, I'd be thinking that V might have raised A6s pre, probably wouldn't limp in with Q6s, probably would have led out on the flop with 2P, and might have 3B over our turn raise. Like, if V has A6, and he's putting us on a worse 2P or a semi-bluff with a flush draw, he should want to get as much money in on the turn as possible.

But the SPR on the turn is high enough that he can flat call with his flush draws, so when he just flat calls, I think his range is heavily weighted towards those draws, or some stubborn AX.

If we were OOP, I might check-call river, even if V jammed. In position, we have to bet, obviously, and I'd probably go for a chunky over-bet, expecting V to just flat call with his flushes. I don't think I could find a fold if V check-jammed, unless I was very sure V would never check-jam worse.

The way this was played, when we bet around 60% pot, with 1.3x pot left behind, we're somewhat inducing a tilted V to spaz-raise. Maybe flat calling is better, because V won't call a jam with worse. But then again, if he's tilted, and has the nut flush, or AQo no hearts, or A5 no hearts, he might. We're going to be sick if we flat call and he flips over KXdd.

He might call with those hands for the same reason we'd call a jam with our hand - hard to fold such a strong hand when our opponent could conceivably be over-playing worse.

Thank you - i really was looking for confirmation of my thought process with perhaps some deliberation/critique of whether the jam is just silly given opponent description and therefor just calling here is the way to go.

he DID have A6o which he took his time to flip over and gloat about. I simply chipped up to the table max and said "niiiice hand!" in as happy a way I could cuz i mean - if he's playin A6o here he'll have TONS of hands I can make fold in future pots when he calms down a bit and remembers its not a 7 card game. And since anything with 75%+ equity realization for me individually is a ****ing myth, i'll need him to be choc full o' folds on flops and turns and I'll adjust to respect his x/raises with a slightly higher frequency. (but not 100%, nobody ever gets 100% of my respect at the table )

The only hand out there that really beats you is maybe a6. Aces and queens unlikely. Esepcially since nobody raised and nobody raised the flop.

He may very well have some random 6. He could have an ace. He could have garbage. You're in position here. Just call and then either call off his river bet or jam if he doesn't.