We are in the first two orbits at a new table. Villian is in his twenties wearing his hat backwards and I have played with him before. My only memory of him was that he was not bad and nothing stuck out as either good or bad from our last session. $300 effective stacks

Villian is UTG +2 and he opens for a raise to $15. Hero is UTG +4 and reraised to $45 with QQ. Folds around to villian and he calls. Looking at him during this time I didn't get the feeling that he was going to re-raise or fold. I think his mind was made up right after my raise to call. My raise pre-flop is for straight value.

Flop ($94): 893 villian leads out for $20. Hero immediately raises to $65. Villain doesn't wait that long and calls the $65. My reasoning here is that I think his $20 bet is either trying to get his price for an AK, AQ hand or doesn't want to face a big bet with an overpair like 10's or J's and with the 8,9 he can get a lot of straight draws on the turn. I decided to treat his $20 bet like a check and bet the $65 I was going to bet anyway. Incidently, if he had bet/three bet I was folding the flop.

Turn ($224) 4 (didn't write down suit, but I don't think we are worried about flush draws here). Villain shoves. Hero studies for a few seconds and doesn't notice villain acting relaxed or tense, he is just kind of staring at the middle of the table. Hero calls.

Standard. Are you asking if you should have folded? You don´t win every hand you play correctly. And don´t fold to a flop 3 bet either. We´re just getting it in on this board with these stacks against an unknown every. single. time.

I don't see why he would lead with a set. I also don't see him calling pre with 89 so he must either have overs or a draw. 4 is as dry as dry gets so get it in.

raise otf is giving him great odds to continue. i'd go 80 at the minimum and shove all turns.

if he shows up with a set or 2pr, take note. its not common for opponents to lead into the 3b with a set trying to induce, but its not a bad play

AP, call ...

Pre: Villain opening for $15 early I'd give credit for pairs 77+ or holding AQ+ ... I like the $45 raise behind

Flop: I like the raise here, ignore the villain donk-lead .... would likely raise for a bit more though (~90)

Turn: Call the donk-shove ... would think hard about the set though. If a set would have expected villain shove on the flop.

Holding QQ is beating JJ/1010, overplayed AK/AQ/Ax, not worried about the draw since no tries at the free card ... at worst I'm expecting villain to roll over KK

If you are the type of player who would EVER consider folding QQ in this spot then the Flop raise needs to be more ... or less (min). $20 donk bet is probably trying to induce a shove in most cases. With a smooth call here of such a small raise you really gather no additional inforamtion than you had of the PF smooth call. So why add to a pot without gaining some information?

His Turn shove is pretty straight foreward with your remaining stack size and I am assuming you are beat here by AA/KK. Although any line is possible, I dont really see a set donk shoving a blank Turn but since you have showed quite a bit of interest in this pot I wouldnt see it as a bad play either. Doubtful he is trying to push you off a hand with a OESD so you are looking at sets/AA/KK v JJ/TT ... probably behind, cooler .. move on. GL

I think OP got owned by KK+. I thereby rate your stackoff as a C+.

The $20 bet is a textbook Raptor bet that you ate up. I'd have played it much the same way up until calling it off OTT though. Your hand is basically face-up when you raise the flop and since you don't seem to have any real history, bluffing for him is suicidal. If he shows up with JJ, you can instantly label him as a spewtard though, so there's a silver lining.

EDIT: Wow. I was grunching before, but having read the responses now, there is a bunch of bad ITT. V raises PF, then flats the 3b when HU. Leads for 1/5 PSB, flats the raise and then ships for almost PSB on the blank turn and everyone wants to call it off with QQ?

what is a raptor bet? When is staring at the board like that it usually indicates alot of strength so i would just give it up. C+ for effort!

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=raptor+bet

The only hand you ever beat here is an awfully played JJ. You are behind once he calls the flop and shoves turn.

Villain never expects you to fold this turn as played. That should concern you.

So much this, so much not what anyone else posted.

I mean, not to just be throwing around old, lame poker jargon too much since I've met my quota on saying "Raptor bet" for the week, but this is a pretty standard stack-a-donk line.

If you're not going to be folding a medium strength overpair to a non-threatening board with this action then you're basically saying you're never folding an overpair unless the board is just horrendous and you're going to get stacked a lot.

Interestingly, I was on the total opposite side of this argument in this thread:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...raise-1341289/

but you have to look at the action and situation more closely and see the differences. I think a good bit can be learned from the subtleties in these two hands. I think OP's hand ITT is a clear fold on the turn whereas the other thread is probably a b/ship OTT but obviously not as clear since one is deepstacked and the other is 100bb.

I tend to flat preflop here. I explain my reasoning in another recent thread regarding QQ facing an UTG raise with 100bb stacks. But I'm on the passive side preflop, so whatever.

As played, we've made our bed so now let's lie in it. We's got an SPR of 2.5 and we's got an overpair. We're committed, so whatever way we're good with getting our chips in is cool with me. The raise on the flop is a quite small compared to stack size, but whatever, it allows us to easily ship the turn, so I don't hate it.

Gwhydoeseveryonemaketheirbedpreflopandthennotwanto tlieinitpostflop?G

Seems like good money after bad.

If we're raising preflop to get immediate value from JJ/TT and even overcards, then I don't see how we can fold postflop with no overs on board, especially on the turn facing << PSB.

I mean, ya, it sucks that we've totally advertised the strength of our hand and yet villain still wants to play for stacks, but I still think we committed ourselves preflop with the 3bet combined with this board.

Gmakingaplan,stickingwithitG

yup, SPR doesn't mean you have to be committed when you're too far behind their hand range, as spikeraw and I advocated in another thread the other day (the AA on KQ2 board I think)

It's only committing if we want it to be.

Seriously the only hand we beat here is JJ-TT or pure air. After their line of raise pre/call 3 bet follow by donk flop + call, I'm taking my ball and going home.

The way I see, if we're not willing to commit on this board with this SPR, then we shouldn't be 3betting preflop.

I don't really agree with that because I think you learned a lot on the flop about his range.

Hero's sizing is pretty bad all around.

Pre 3B way too small. $80-100. Fold to 4B. Easy ship on the flop.

If Hero properly sized his 3B pre, the donkey bet on the flop would have been irrelevant. As played, flat the donkey bet and let Villain bluff his money into your stack. You don't want to raise here and make him fold AX. Also, since Hero's preflop 3B was so small, there are too many 9x, 8x, 98, TJ type hands still in Villain's range. We don't want him to fold any of them, so just flat the small bet.

As played, call turn and expect to be good about 33% of the time.

What hfrog said.

This is only a call if you know V always thinks aggression means AK and AA is best played as a passive/trap. I dont see how calling is a cooler if you know you are almost always way behind.

Eh, you have to be able to change your reads/have a flexible when the action is this abnormal. I understand what you're saying, but 100bb is deep enough, barely, to change your mind post flop.




If OP were sitting with KK, I'd be more apt to agree with you, but I think he's deep enough to bail on queens when V basically runs a stop and go.




3b to 80+ is ridiculous.
3b 1/3 effective stacks and folding is borderline ridiculous.
Including 9x and 8x in his range is ridiculous.
I'm not sure if this post is a level though. You didn't say tree fiddly anywhere so I guess not, but I'm still suspicious.

I LOL at the LLSNL forum when they say 3B to 45-50 ish... This doesn't even make any sense from a mathematical POV. UTG raises to $15, and Hero 3B to $45. Pot is now $60 and its $30 to call. Getting 2:1 immediately, and $255:30 (8.5:1), UTG will call with 100% of his UTG opening range, so IDK how you can actually eliminate [8x, 9x, etc.] from his range. If there is a caller in between and it goes 3 ways, then UTG's call is even most likely correct with suited connectors.

I get called all the time when I 3B to $90, or $80, or w/e. If folks are folding, then fine, next time I 3B to $65-70. But it is rare that I get folds. So if the LLSNL fish are going to call, then I'm going to make them call as much as possible whilst I'm still ahead.

4B in LLSNL is 90%+ going to be KK+. So why would I want to continue with QQ? Yep, 3B/fold preflop. Easy day. Play exploitable until you are actually exploited.

ETA... there are two ways Hero can be exploited here. 1) 4B light (which almost never happens IMO), and 2) Villain folds [AJs+, AQo+, 88-QQ], which happens but less frequently. I cannot remember the last time I had some UTG opener fold to my huge 3B and show me AK or TT.

I agree with everything Hfrog says in this thread. Villain has to be really bad to be behind In this hand. Sets have me beat and aces and kings got me beat. And I don't have villain pegged as bad! He was a little apprehensive because I can have aces here, but if I did he is going broke. I shouldn't have gone broke. I was folding to re-raises from villain both pre flop and on the flop, but he owned my soul with KK here.

He didn't own your soul his hand is basically face up and you still paid him off.