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1-3 Raise size question 1-3 Raise size question

09-20-2024 , 07:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telemakus
I'm talking about on average, against the average player pool. Of course having a maniac who jams 100% of hands when limped to changes things; but in reality that is never going to be the case. Reality is absolutely clear-cut and there is zero doubt that raising with KK in EP is higher EV and wins much bigger pots than limp-raising does.

Limp-reraising in EP is one of the most transparent ranges in the game in my opinion, and I'm not in the business of giving my opponents free information like this. In my mind there is zero doubt that these hands should simply be in the RFI range with the rest of the EP range. That way the entire range remains stronger, you avoid the complication of splitting ranges preflop, and the strongest hands in your range are concealed by the fact that they RFI in the same manner as the weaker hands.

What normal live low stakes poker setups are you claiming that limping KK in EP is higher EV than raising, and how?
When there is a raise you get to re-raise. The table of limped vs raised pots only applies if there is a limped pot. Now compare the raised pot to the re-raised pot and note which is larger. Now I agree you need a strong likelihood the pot will get raised so you can re-raise but if that exists limping can be very effective. And if the table will always treat it as a QQ+, AQ+ hand even better as you then do not limit your re-raises to these hands. Note well I agree if the table is a limp fest this is not a good strategy.
1-3 Raise size question Quote
09-20-2024 , 08:01 PM
"When there is a raise" - this is the issue. That is not something we can control. The only thing over which we have control is our decision when the action is on us. Our options are raise, limp or fold, and raising is quite simply the highest EV option, so we do it every time. When we raise we use the same size that we use with our whole range from that position, which keeps our hand strength concealed when we're at the top of our range, and allows us to go into the hand with a broader and more playable range overall.

What hands go into the limp-reraise range? Often at low stakes this is something like QQ+, AQ+ (and that's being generous, in my experience). This is absolutely akin to turning your hand face-up to any decent opponent. They can overfold a lot of their range and play the remainder very easily against you in position with your face-up range. Some argue that the counter to this is to start limping an even wider range, which of course is just introducing minus EV plays into your game. And as indicated above, limping these strong hands removes them from your regular RFI range, which becomes weaker and attackable as a result - good luck defending against 3bets with QQ+ and AQ+ removed from your range.

Take a look at the stats of all the major crushers in online poker history; none of them are limp-reraising as their default play from EP in a full-ring game. It's not supported by the math or the data, and at least in my experience is simply an oldskool OMC tactic. They look down at aces and limp to "see how many suckers they can reel in" and then - if possible - raise when the action gets back to them; proudly announcing their nutted trap to all and sundry from the rooftops.

Last edited by Telemakus; 09-20-2024 at 08:06 PM.
1-3 Raise size question Quote
09-20-2024 , 08:05 PM
Enough with the general limp/re-raise discussion. You want to have a separate thread for that, go for it, and I'll move all these posts into it, but this is about a particular hand.
1-3 Raise size question Quote
09-21-2024 , 03:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telemakus
"When there is a raise" - this is the issue. That is not something we can control. The only thing over which we have control is our decision when the action is on us. Our options are raise, limp or fold, and raising is quite simply the highest EV option, so we do it every time. When we raise we use the same size that we use with our whole range from that position, which keeps our hand strength concealed when we're at the top of our range, and allows us to go into the hand with a broader and more playable range overall.

What hands go into the limp-reraise range? Often at low stakes this is something like QQ+, AQ+ (and that's being generous, in my experience). This is absolutely akin to turning your hand face-up to any decent opponent. They can overfold a lot of their range and play the remainder very easily against you in position with your face-up range. Some argue that the counter to this is to start limping an even wider range, which of course is just introducing minus EV plays into your game. And as indicated above, limping these strong hands removes them from your regular RFI range, which becomes weaker and attackable as a result - good luck defending against 3bets with QQ+ and AQ+ removed from your range.

Take a look at the stats of all the major crushers in online poker history; none of them are limp-reraising as their default play from EP in a full-ring game. It's not supported by the math or the data, and at least in my experience is simply an oldskool OMC tactic. They look down at aces and limp to "see how many suckers they can reel in" and then - if possible - raise when the action gets back to them; proudly announcing their nutted trap to all and sundry from the rooftops.
We may not get to control if there is a raise but we do get to observe the other players and get a reasonable idea of the likelihood of there being a raise. You are correct that this strategy is an attempt to exploit the play of the opponents which is one reason why it works much better in live games than online games. And if you know your opponents will read a limp re-raise as only QQ+, AQ+ and they will overfold based on that you need not fulfill their expectations and only do it with those hands.
1-3 Raise size question Quote

      
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