Hero ($350): Standard TAG on UTG +1

V1($280): Mid 20s TAG. Only seen him show "strong" holdings. 88+, AJ+, JT+. Never seen him play trash.

V2 ($400): Early 40s Passive calling station. Tilted after getting coolered Full house vs full house. Calling with absolute trash pre and post.

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Hero opens A A on UTG+1 at $12, V1 on HJ calls and V2 on SB calls.

F ($39): 4 3 J

V2 checks, Hero bets $20, V1 calls, V2 folds.

T ($79): 5

Hero checks, V1 checks

R ($79): K

Hero tanks a bit and bets $40, V1 tanks a bit too and raises to $100, Hero tanks again and calls.

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Thoughts on this hand?

Why did you check the turn? Should be a very safe card for you and given description and board this is likely to be Jx a huge proportion of the time.

River raise the hand that makes most sense is KJ. For this price I probably sigh call, especially if this guy might turn a medium pair into a bluff. It would be a very passive way to play a flopped set and he doesn't have two pair (if he's decent he's not calling 54s on the flop, ditto 76s and A2s). In fact the more I think about it the more convinced I am that there are no hands apart from KJ which beat us, so for the price it feels like a call.

villain isnt really tanking

fold river, TAGS dont call this board with a player behind without at least a pair, and i doubt hes turning it into a bluff after you bet a river card that favors your range. that means he has KJ always.

This is a fair point. I struggle to fold when you're getting nearly 4/1 and there's only one natural hand you're losing to. On the other hand, there are roughly zero natural bluffs other than pairs...I agree that this is KJ a huge amount of the time

Bet large on turn. He should not have any 54 or 76 here based on your read of him. I'd go close to pot.

Like the others said i think he just always has KJ on the river so I think we can fold.

I limp in but that's my style.

Cool with a smallish flop bet.

I'm ok with a check on the turn against this villain (whereas I would lean to continuing against the calling station).

I'm cool with a bet on the river but think we have to fold to the raise (have to be up against very specific villain to ever think of deviating from a standard bet/fold on the river, imo). Our hand reads as AK and he doesn't care.

GcluelessNLnoobG

"Hero and V and everyone is TAG/LAG"

...

"Hero check calls, V calls, other V limp calls... he tanks then calls"

Why did you check the turn? I really don't understand that. If you check the turn, check the river. As played, fold if reads are correct -- you should never be good. K is in your range and he still raises.

PRE - raise bigger.

FLOP - bet 1/3 pot. Half pot is too much.

TURN - bomb it for 2/3 pot.

RIVER - check and evaluate.

It's possible V is turning a hand like AJcc into a bluff here, or possibly betting some KX hand for value, but that's less likely when we bet, because KX can just flat call.

I'd have preferred to barrel turn, and check to induce V to value bet a worse hand, or bluff.

As played, think we should mostly fold here, absent any info that V is capable of turning a hand with some showdown value into a bluff in a spot like this.

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Thanks all. Definitely I should've bet the Turn

My thought process was that a KJ would bet turn but V checked so that made me think he'd have 88-TT or AK/KQ since AJ would've bet turn too.

Results:

Nice hand.

Make a mental note on V, in case you see him again, that he's capable of turning TPTK i into a bluff.

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Wow. Not how I'd expect to see that hand played most of the time on any street, but there you go. Interesting hand

i dont think villain is a TAG, more like button clicker. his pf/flop/river play are all lolbad. shows why postflop reads are important

I wonder if hes raising for value or a bluff on the end. Maybe trying to soul read hero for exactly KQ.

Reviewing the hand again...

We c-bet flop, and V called with 2 overs. We checked turn, and V checked back. That all seems pretty standard. V made TPTK on the river. He probably thought he was raising to get value from KQ and worse pairs.

If we bet all three streets, V called flop AND turn, and THEN he raised the river, I'd say he was too LAG, but nothing he did here seems insane. We wouldn't fault him for betting if hero checked to him, so his raise isn't very out of line.

ok im ignoring replies (ya'll still call it "grunching" or whatever?) and typing straight from the heart:

the advice i was given at lower stakes 15 years ago was no player who doesnt play in time games where the BB was a number 5-15x > than the big blind in my game raises a river or ch/raises on a river without the nuts*

I thought about that a lot and then tried to start implementing this - i still remember a very large 300+BB pot where I had the nut flush blocker and ch/raised some reg and got snapped with the Jhi flush but you know - i applied the lesson incorrectly.

today's games are different though substantially. however I think a piece of that still carries over.

How much of a TAG? -ag enough to find some good bluffs here as this board runout doesnt exactly favor your UTG range (you have less nutted type hands, sets, two pair etc here but Im sure you know this)

Against what my heart wants to do, I think I personally could learnt to fold in these spots a little more often. But REALLY i need to know the TAG is 100% a TAG and not just some dude who reads about poker or watches poker shows on youtube on their cell phone at the casino constantly but hasnt actually EMBEDDED the strat into their day 2 day. See the latter of these two descriptions is easier to find a fold whereas a TAG... well, a legit TAG might have enough for you to find a call sometimes.

See I seen a few times "TAG doesnt do X without the goods" and maybe im just ****ing cursed with eternal run bad. I dont hit hands. I see other people do it all the damn time. **** i watched one guy cake up in 15 minutes with actions he may as well chosen with his eyes closed to his cards,board cards etc.

BUT before we dial up that massage parlor for a frisky 1hr with a foxy 50yr old using money you aint even cashed out with yet - it IS true, TAGs do often have the goods. But I want to point out just some nitpicky **** here and say: if we're labeling folks TAG and the auto response is "What has 3 hands but always has two hands clutching their nuts? A TAG!" (ok i'll rewrite that joke, its not hitting right but the cards are hand , left right hand, anatomical body part + super duper poker hand blahblah)

i got tangent'ed - point is this: lets qualify this a bit. Guy who a folds a bunch and 1 time shows up with AKs to scoop isnt necessarily a TAG. Seemingly disciplined PF opponent never limp callin anything from anywhere isnt necessarily a TAG. A TAG will show up sometimes with the busted high equity draw on boards that favored them. yes i know, we dont always get the luxury of that kinda blessed knowledge of the gods like in an online game where u can peek at HH's and get hole cards form a villain as long as opponent put money in on the river - but until then offer a little modifier. Somethin subtle like they always W$WSF or ANYTHING that might provide a stronger metric for the label TAG.

Until then though:
dude's a TAG - the **** you thinkin? you think that guy raises the river w/o MINIMUM a hand that beats AK? And since you got AA its more likely they got two pair.

He is a TAG based on other hands I've seen him play.

Said this, why do yu think he played AK bad and/or how would you've played it? I think it's pretty standard play as doc mentioned as well

Allow me to revise my earlier advice, regarding the mental note. Just remember the guy is in fact a good player who plays in a reasonable way, who isn't scared to put in a raise with thin value on the river.

easy 3bet pre, and i would not call the flop cbet with a player behind when the pfr is raising from UTG+1. i especially would not do it with AK as that hand blocks the unpaired hands you could have like AQ. river raise only possibly gets value from one hand (KQ which many people dont open raise with) and is thus a mistake as well. the only way the river raise works is if you for some reason you would b/c the river with worse hands than top pair because you think he's FOS.