1/3 NLH match the stack

This hand was from a few weeks ago.

Main villain is the button in this hand. He is a reg who plays well, when he is having a winning session and tends to become the whale when he’s having a losing session. This session, he was winning. Either way, plays a bit more aggro than the avg player at the table.

The limper in the hand is just a fishy kid who plays 1/2 usually and I never really seen him play a match the stack format.


1400 effective
Preflop:
UTG straddle 6. Co limps. Btn raises to 25. Sb folds. I have black KK in the big blind and 3! To 100. The limper in CO calls 100. Btn now 4! To 400. I flat. Limper calls.

(Pot: $1200) Flop Q65ssx.
I check. Limper check. Btn 400. We Call. Limper is all in for less (375)

(Main Pot: $2,325) (side pot:$50) Turn 3x.
I check. Btn is all in for our remaining 600.

(Side pot: $650)
(Total Pot: $2,975)

Hero?

either fold or shove flop. i dont see the point in calling given your stack size. given your description of villain i dont see anything you beat here and would just c/f the flop. i might even fold pre i dont think ive ever seen a 4b for this size at 1/3 that wasnt AA.

This sucks....

Lol @ CO limping and then calling 100.

I dont know if I can fold pre, but I wouldnt fault someone for it and its probably the best play.

Now on the flop we are losing to the only hand we could hope villain had QQ. I just cry and fold flop.

If I call flop I dont see how we can fold turn with all that money in the pot now only because im going to be violently ill if this guy shows down some nonsense. I call and hope he has same hand.

I can't see how we can fold but a LOT more info on him would be needed to make the correct decision besides having two key words in his description, "whale" and "aggro"

We have less than a psb left otf with no ace on there so unless he has aces or queens (which could be discounted vs a guy who "tends to become the whale") we should be golden (unless he got cute and flopped two pair with something random).

To clarify, he becomes a whale at the table when he is losing. In that session he was up a bit. Either way, he still plays pretty aggressively. Only difference is when he’s stuck a bunch, he forces the issue.

I dunno. In theory your BB vs Btn 3b is supposed to be wide here which he would know right? He may be trying to iso the CO, and he's a aggro reg, we may have to give him more than just QQ+. What's your image to him?

I perceive my image to him be TAG. We have a lot of hours at the same table. Mutual respect for one another. But we have played big pots before against one another.

given iso/steal position of hero i'd wager Villain has a wider range than simply AA (6 combos) QQ (3 combos) and AQ (12 combos). Doubt villain 4bets 55 or 66 here.

Flatting with KK is fine this deep imo.

I think i gotta shrug call if villain is aggressive enough to have something wider than the above range.

If villain ONLY has the above range though once you c/call flop and they still bomb turn after you check you have to pause a minute to think about what villain has here. If they are as good as you suggest (thinking player etc) they should be giving you at least a Q here some % of the time possibly KQs which would make sense if they were holding something AQ. More on this paragraph in a moment but first a tangent:

When ranges get this narrow I either have to form rational argument for villain to be doing something like bombing w/ AKss for example and they are assuming all K outs are clean, which isnt necessarilly irrational given pot size and such but IS based on your estimation of their estimation of your perceived range/ability etc eg. their view of you/range would have KQs in it.

Was the Q a spade btw? just trying to figure out if AQss is a possible combo here still as that would also affect the analysis.

Going back to the simple range given above at the outset I'm not sure I'm folding KK if I think villain is decent enough and would rightfully be giving me a range that includes hands like KQ etc (which would justify their line in their mind) and this is just a "shrug call" even this deep (just because of preflop sizing and all)

Going back to the point I said we'd return to re: their line and bombing turn given all the action - this obviously is dependent on the factors presented above but if they are ABC'ing it, this is the inflection point where the decision to find a fold could be made / argument presented to fold to the turn bomb but villain would have to 1) be pretty solid to have enough bluffs here to do so (and be aware they wouldnt HAVE to turn some hands into bluffs that have substantial showdown value or blockers etc) 2) be aware enough that they wont have as much fold equity because of substantial pot size/pf action etc (eg. approaching the indifference factor)

meh, i call it off here just cuz even against some of the best 1/3 and 2/5 players i see, KK scoops enough given pot odds/equity required etc. im not stoked but I'm not really sick about it either.

If I recall correctly, Q was a spade.

Think I just jam it all in pre, rather than call off $400 and consider folding post.

As played, think I jam it all in on the flop.

Never folding on this board, so nothing to do but call turn.

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Shove flop or fold -- or just shove pre if you're not folding anyway? Gross spot. Hard to believe he expects you to fold KK on turn, yet he still puts it in.

1. if we "shove or fold" flop, what's the reason for calling pre and getting an aceless dryish flop and folding? we're not set mining
2. we're 450 bb's deep vs an over 100 bb 4bet in 1/3. We have to think about the possibility that he has aces. If we were 100 bb's then yes obviously jam pre but we're approaching 500 bb's here.
3. has the hero ever seen him 3bet or 4bet pre? If so what was his range (if seen)?

I absolutely think he could have AA. I'd probably fold pre vs. this guy, although folding KK pre is tough, but here we are. I see zero reason to flat the flop.

I’ve seen this player 4! Many times. Especially in this type of configuration where ranges may be wider and where he may see “dead” money in the pot.
Also, I’ve seen him do this w value and a lot lighter. I think he could 4! As light as KQs-ATs to iso the lumper. I don’t think he would 4! With pairs lower than JJ. BUT if he thinks I’m squeezing light, he may 4! With TT…

if you have this dynamic and history then just shove the flop. you didnt mention this in your OP.

tbh it sounds like you lost to AA or QQ and are looking for validation that you made the right play.

Not looking for validation, at all.

I’m just curious to know what other players think, besides the ppl I know personally. I never post/ or share a hand for validation. Mostly for discussion and to learn from any potential mistakes.

This is a hand from weeks ago that I went over with ppl I respect in poker. So, I bring this to 2+2 for discussion and to see how other ppl are thinking.

Important info. This makes me want to jam pre or jam flop -- flop is probably better.

Even tho I think the 4bet size is just too large from villain I don’t think just shoving this deep is the best answer here as it is too limiting when we are calling 4bets that aren’t as large/caps our range in all 4bet pots when deep or deeper (if you find yourself in super deep stacked games like this or deeper etc)

I don’t hate shoving flop even if villains range is on the tighter more conservative side but if as mentioned later villain is capable of doing this wider they’re never gonna shrug call it off with hands we’re way ahead of whereas you can get another street of value possibly in a ch call ch shove or ch call open shove (obviously shoving turns that would be least likely to connect with villains estimated range)

Also add occasional times villain value owns themself and shoved for us Vs hero shoves villain folds

Villain not holding AQss would either shift their likely 4bet range depending depending on how conservative you think they’d take this line pre and flop.

Given squeeze potential AQo isn’t irrational to assume but we could limit it to just AsQx say to simplify mathematical analysis.


But also you have to analyze this from their POV: Q spade means your flat of the 4bet could be a small handful of XspadeXspade as well from their POV with regard to your actions/range - as described they seem somewhat capable.

I still feel like I’m getting money in either way tho :/

I agree with nittyoldman1 these small lil details are very important.

If I was in 1/3 with 1400 I'm jamming pre vs this guy pretty easily then and it also makes the flop an easier jam too.

The detail that I think is being overlooked here is that the CO limp-called our 3B. The BTN is going to be incentivized to 4B with a wider range here as a result.

And there's a reasonable chance CO will come along if we flat. So we're incentivized to 5B, rather than take KK three ways and OOP to the flop.

If we were heads up, I could see jist flatting the 4B. But not with the CO involved too. The SPR is going to be under 1 going to the flop. I don't mind just getting it in pre with KK, rather than considering a fold post flop.

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Very valid take. In hindsight, I wish this was the line I took.

oops almost rts be careful

We live and we learn.

Most good players aren't going to limp in from the CO, then call a big 3B from the BB over BTN open. Most are just going to get out of the way. But at low stakes, we do sometimes see this from more passive players, with all sorts of hands from KQs to 99-JJ, and some less-loved AXs combos, like AJs.

Setting the CO's involvement aside, I prefer to put in the last raise pre with big pocket pairs and AKs whenever I'll be OOP post-flop. As the SPR gets lower, I prefer to have the betting lead with these hands.

Even if we were heads-up, and we just flat call the $400, the pot will be >$800, with only $1k back. It's going to be a nightmare playing a 1 SPR post-flop, on any board that comes T-high or higher, unless we flop top set. I'd rather just 5B jam pre and see all five cards, to put max pressure on TT-QQ and AXs that might be tempted to 4B us light from the BTN at this stack depth.

With the CO putting $100 in dead money into the pot, I think a 5B jam becomes mandatory.