1/3 NL

V1 (UTG,$280): 40s while man. rec player. Just sit down like 15 mins.
V2(MP,$350): Old man. Weird player. Doesn't raise KK,AK preflop but bet big on flop. Bet or call with bottom pair. Sometimes over play his cards.
Hero (BTN, $1800): Hero is tight and on heat.



Preflop: V1 raises to $16, V2 calls, Hero calls on button with Ad7d

Flop($51): 772r

V1 bets 45, V2 calls. Hero? Should hero raise here? why? if raise what is a good size?

I'd flat. It is very strong, but these guys probably don't realize it. Once another bet goes in OTT, they'll both be committed.

Bottom line is that V's tend to get very unbelieving on paired boards, but if you raise, they will wake up to the possibility of a 7 in your hand. If you flat you have a good chance of getting stacks from overpairs from both of them, whereas if you raise you're only getting one stack if one of them has the case 7 with a worse kicker.

Tempting to raise but flatting is probably better because:
V1 bet and V2 called. They're both active for you to get value from later. If you raise, V1 might run because he's frozen with V2 acting after him.
You have position.
You have two more streets to get value and stacks aren't that deep. It shouldn't be that hard to get all in on the turn and river, so you don't have to raise to build the pot now.

That said, tempting to make it $150 and see if they spaz. I think V1 folds, V2 calls, and if you flat, you've got a chance to stack them both. So flat, pan to bet or raise turn. It's slightly dicey in that you can put both of them on over pairs, so you don't know what card might give them the miracle boat. But more often than not, your hand holds up and you stack s big pot.

Obvious flat because you have position. That gives you a chance to get both pot committed on turn and avoids any chance of it checking around on turn. Both flatting and raising on this drawless board are very strong but raising gives middle pairs too much of a chance to fold.

You don't need to worry about protection your hand because there is no way to know which cards are bad and neither villain has enough money that your ever going to consider folding anyways.

This.

They are both drawing to 2 outs. Lets milk them both for everything they have. Call down and raise the river. Bet if checked to.

Fold pre.

Why aren't we shoving? There's no draw and only 1 7 left in the deck. The guy with the 7x will call and be drawing nearly dead. The guy without the 7 has a pocket pair and flatting just lets him turn a boat and double through you.

coward

That's a harsh way to put it, but he's drawing to two outs. Getting him to fold his equity here is not a victory compared to getting him to put another bet in with tiny equity.

After all, the case 7 is drawing to (one) more outs than a PP is.

What pocket pair are you getting ai with here except 22?

If a worse hand is done putting money in from behind, you've gotten everything you can out of it, it's time to bet/raise so it folds.

I think a pp is done putting in money behind because that's what I see every time I play, pp's don't setmine to the river 3-way with pot-sized bets going in on every street.

What are the reasons you think a pp will put in another bet ott?

I'm just done being surprised at how stubborn Vs get on paired boards.

I used to only see the mines to the flop, the past 6months-1year I've seen a lot of mines to the turn, I've just yet to see them to the river.

Also, V1 has a 1.2PSB left ott, the Vs aren't deep enough to throw in 1 more small turn bet, V1 has been potting it, it looks like V1 is surrendering or shoving ott.

I think if you're going to get folds from overpairs when you raise on this flop, you should just raise air until they realize you don't always have a 7.

I played a hand somewhat similar to this one a week or so ago in a 1/2 game. Villain ($500) raised to $15 UTG, one caller in MP, I call
OTB (I cover) half stack with $115 calls in BB. Flop is T22, but with a spade draw. BB ships $100, UTG calls, MP folds and I'm in the same spot as OP in this hand. If I call, and a spade comes, I'm not getting any more from UTG. If I raise over an over bet and a call, I look super strong.

In the end, I went with my read that he would read a raise as bluffer than a flat. So I shipped. His reaction was hilarious. He jumped up out of his seat and said "wow this is the sickest spot of my life. Then he paused a bit and said "ok, you never have TT here; no one shoves TT here"...and then called after talking it through for about two minutes saying I had a big draw (he had AA, LDO)

The board texture and action are different enough that I don't think they are terribly closely analogous, but I do think that there are some reasons to consider a raise here. Mainly because the guy with a 7 is going to look at his kicker and not be happy if he doesn't boat OTT. If he has 97, for ex, he probably feels like he's only losing to A7, but an 8, 6, 5 or maybe even a 4 OTT could potentially slow him down. So there are three 2s that screw you, and at least 16 cards he doesn't want to see OTT, almost half the deck.

So I'd be thinking hard about raising here to get more value before a scare card comes. It's also barely possible here that someone might spew because "no one ever raises a 7 here." Probably unlikely, but it for sure can't happen if you don't raise.

I'm NOT saying I definitely raise here. Only that I think about it, and I don't think over calling should be automatic here. I know I have both called and raised in this exact spot, but I'm not prepared to hazard a guess as to which has proved more profitable.

i agree. fold pre mainly because its not that strong of a hand. especially to the utg raiser. this hand has some rio also if we spike an ace OTF so the only thing you would be calling this hand prf are for chances to get two pair+

Mod edit to put it better: "That has not been my experience. I am surprised to hear you say so"

against 5x UTG 93bb this is an easy fold pre.

I think it depends on Hero image. I usually like raising committed trips because people don't fold trips and they often expect you to be sneaky with yours. But is your image too strong from the heater? How will they react if you click-it-back?

If they get there, they get there, the slowplay concern is cards that cool your action, not their outs, as you're never folding at this stack depth obviously.

I'm probably just calling here given what is in OP.

Could just be a geographical thing, friend from where I used to live says games haven't changed, where I live now I see a lot more folding than I'm used to.

Preflop is pretty meh, imo. We'll have position, but only mehish implied odds, plus it looks like this hand might only go 3way (we typically want it going a lot more ways if just playing hit-our-hand poker), plus we might lose a bet or two if an A flops. I'd fold, but I'm nitty like that.

The two conditions that should typically be met for slow playing are (a) board is fairly drawless so no scare cards could come to kill the action and (b) stacks/position are such that we can easily get in stacks on later streets. SPR is 6-7 on the flop, and with a PSB and call on the flop, it'll be trivial to get in stacks later on this drawless board in position. So flatting the flop is fine, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG