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1-3 NL 8 10 of hearts on the button 1-3 NL 8 10 of hearts on the button

08-02-2014 , 01:36 AM
Please ignore the comments about checking back river. Let's just get real here. Small stakes players just don't check raise bluff rivers. This is an ok bet fold being that our hand really is only beating a small portion of very random flushes. If we had the 2nd nuts the story changes and the amount of flush combos we beat increases. So I am never folding he 2nd nuts. However the 5th nuts can be a fold here.

I think the comments on the 150 sizing are dead on. Perfect value bet. Whoa all of a sudden he check raises?!? Time to make that sigh fold IMO we are just never scooping this pot. Sometimes we fold the best hand but is say it is just not very often. # stupid river not giving is the nuts.

FYI I didn't see the results until after
1-3 NL 8 10 of hearts on the button Quote
08-02-2014 , 02:02 AM
Seems fine up to river. Only a massive fish is calling that river bet with two pair and he should never have a straight. Bet $130 to get looked up by worse and leave enough room to fold to a shove. A river c/r shove when the flush hits is always the nuts unless V is super LAG or an idiot that will call the "big" turn raise with a small FD. Yeah you're getting odds but V also just always has the nuts with his line. 100% of $0 is still $0.
1-3 NL 8 10 of hearts on the button Quote
08-02-2014 , 02:43 AM
V cals your raise on turn, I say he has Jx most of the time. Sets and many of the two pairs 3 3 bet the turn raise very often.

River is difficult because you must bet an amt. that a J will call. I would bet probably 95 unless you think he is locked into this pot and wont fold. Then maybe 50% to 60% pot would be fine. He will be worried about the flush if he doesnt have it.
1-3 NL 8 10 of hearts on the button Quote
08-02-2014 , 09:35 AM
This was also a limped pot, so expect holdings and draws to be premium when things escalate to this level imo. I tend to avoid escalating in spots like these in limped pots, without a made hand. I would have flatted ott and flatted a healthy river bet.
1-3 NL 8 10 of hearts on the button Quote
08-02-2014 , 09:58 AM
Why would you ever flat turn? You hit a gutshot to the nuts and have a redraw in this spot you need to pile money in before he either bricks river and was drawing or otherwise finds a fold OTR. Good spot for overbet raise to 140 for fatty bombatty value.

I don't see this player type folding a lot of sets to 140. A full pot raise would be 115 total.

I like ANL's smaller river lead under $100 right above. You can get paid off way more often and if villain isn't that good he's probably not bluff c/r unless you bet really really small.
1-3 NL 8 10 of hearts on the button Quote
08-02-2014 , 10:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackInDaCrak
Why would you ever flat turn? You hit a gutshot to the nuts and have a redraw in this spot you need to pile money in before he either bricks river and was drawing or otherwise finds a fold OTR. Good spot for overbet raise to 140 for fatty bombatty value.

I don't see this player type folding a lot of sets to 140. A full pot raise would be 115 total.

I like ANL's smaller river lead under $100 right above. You can get paid off way more often and if villain isn't that good he's probably not bluff c/r unless you bet really really small.
If I was going to raise on this limped pot, I would have cranked it on the flop and then pounded the turn and river. 1 singular raise on the turn gets called after signaling no strength previously and your now in no mans land when you brick the river, and very likely getting called down with 2p type hands or even a stubborn JX.
1-3 NL 8 10 of hearts on the button Quote
08-02-2014 , 12:35 PM
Checking is way too nitty. I'd bet $170 or so, targeting his two pairs range. Have to bet call it off here. You need like 23% equity to breakeven. His limping range is super wide and he should be able to raise any flush for value here since it doesn't look like you have a flush.

He always has a flush here when he shoves river. Based on blockers and the board, flushes he can have are Axhh, Kxhh, 95hh, 96hh, 65hh, 64hh, 54hh, 43hh, 42hh. You have 35% against that range. I'd imagine he may fold some of his naked K hi FDs so your equity goes up a tiny bit
1-3 NL 8 10 of hearts on the button Quote
08-02-2014 , 01:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranma4703
Checking back the river is massive MUBS and seriously terrible. It is the only unacceptable play (other than open fold I guess)
I would argue that calling a cr-allin to a value bet is the unnaceptable play. My point was, if you are going to level yourself into calling the crai and can't follow through on the plan to bet-fold, then you should check it back.
1-3 NL 8 10 of hearts on the button Quote
08-02-2014 , 08:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandoncla
This was also a limped pot, so expect holdings and draws to be premium when things escalate to this level imo. I tend to avoid escalating in spots like these in limped pots, without a made hand. I would have flatted ott and flatted a healthy river bet.
Flatting turn is so bad imo
1-3 NL 8 10 of hearts on the button Quote
08-02-2014 , 09:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CallMeVernon
Honestly, the more I get into these spots, the more I'm thinking that we need to be more careful with combinatorics when flush draws come in.

For example, this hand. Really think about it for a second: how many worse flushes can your Villain have? He can't have anything with the 8 since that's in your hand (and by the way, for the same reason, he can't have KT). So OK:

-How can he have a 9-high flush? There's really only one way, 96.
-How can he have a 6-high flush? Maybe 3 ways?
-How can he have a 5-high flush? Maybe 3 ways?
-Can he ever have a 4-high flush? Maybe 2 ways?

By contrast, if we exclude AK for lack of a preflop raise, but include all other suited aces, he can have an ace-high flush 6 ways. So before we have counted suited kings, there are 9 combos of flushes you beat and 6 combos that beat you. If we include K9, that's 9 combos you beat and 7 combos that beat you.

That assumes, however, that Villain plays all suited 2-gappers but will not play suited kings K6 or below, AND that he check/shoves the river with all flushes. Are these fair assumptions? And would he call the river with less than a flush? I don't know, since I don't know the villain. All I'm saying is that you ought to have these reads, or at least educated guesses about them, before you pick your line for the river. And this means it's less than obvious that we have to value bet the river.
Thanks for the dissection, I forgot to mention that in the heat of the moment I didn't realize that he couldn't have had K10; I was just typing up what I was thinking. And it's a fair assumption that he check shoves the river with all flushes imo as I had watched him stack off when he was behind with bottom 2 pair and lose earlier.
1-3 NL 8 10 of hearts on the button Quote
08-02-2014 , 10:20 PM
The river is a B/F. I'm sizing my raise here to get called by TP and 2p type hands. Probably around $100. I really can't imagine this V hero calling $150+ on a flushing and straightening board with 2p. Also sets are gonna raise turn at a high freq.
1-3 NL 8 10 of hearts on the button Quote

      
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