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1/3: Line check with TT in CO vs. BTN 3! 1/3: Line check with TT in CO vs. BTN 3!

06-01-2021 , 01:09 AM
8-handed 1/3 $300 max buy-in. Game has been playing fairly loose passive for about the past hour or so. Lots of open limps that either fold to a single raise and/or a single flop bet. My 3!'s which have been mostly from late(st) position(s) that do include some wide/light holdings will even get small open raises to fold PF.

Villain is new to table. Has played only a few orbits up to the hand in question. Demonstrated a slight streak of aggression using RFI and 3! to pick-up dead money once (one player had also posted behind the button). Played well post flop on the few hands he played which went to flop; lost one hand with AKs vs. short stack pf shove with 88. Just topped off prior to hand in question.

Hero (CO) - $300 eff. vs. V1
V1 (BTN)

Folds to me, I open to $12 (which is fairly standard in this game) with TT. V1 3! to $40. Folds back around to me - I think briefly about 4!, but don't know enough about Villain's tendencies to guess whether this would be effective and my middling pair is difficult to play post-flop OOP. Since I am opening late and V1 is 3! OTB vs. my late opening, I think his range can still be somewhat wide. I call.

Flop: 862 (Pot $84)
This flop is great for my actual hand but doesn't really hit either of our ranges very hard, but I think I have more 88 & 66 combos in my range than V1. I play in flow and check, V1 down bets $30. He can c-bet with a good portion of his range and this sizing doesn't need to be too large to get me to fold all my misses that don't include FDs; I would expect him to bet ~2/3 PSB with hands like 99-KK for value & protection, I would expect ~1/3 to 1/2 PSB with AA. I call.

Turn: 3 (Pot $144)
This is a super brick and nothing should have changed. I know V1 can't expect me to have QQ+ from the PF action, but I elect the stop-n-go route, betting $90 to charge FD's w/overs and protection from any other overs combos that would otherwise take the free card IP. V1 will only be getting final max pot odds of ~7/2 for his $140 that he'd have left behind if he calls with any draw(ing) hand - I don't know what combos justify a ~22% equity. I will have to reluctantly fold if raised, as I could only be beating a (semi)bluff raise IP and V1 could still make a hand on the river to which I lose.

River: 3 (Pot $324)
This is another good brick that shouldn't have changed anything. I decide to check, as I don't see any worse hands that can call - I suppose shoving the river to look like missed flush draw bluff can only be a value play against something like AK with which V1 elected not to semi-bluff raise my turn lead bet and I'd have to know that V1 can call that light as bluff catcher (which I didn't know at the time due to so little info). Also, I have a pretty good bluff catcher if V1 elects to try and bluff himself. V1 takes a few moments, but ultimately checks back. I open my hand and V1 shows down JJ.

Questions:
1. It's a little bit of a cooler, but does anyone have input on my line and/or see where I can do anything different that might change the outcome?
2. Does the stop-n-go play on the turn make my hand pretty face-up at that point? If V1 sees this he could pretty well maximize his value against me on the river?
3. Would I have just been committed to be taken to Value Town if V1 had elected to bet his hand on the river as almost any bet of his, including up to a jam reverses the tables to me where I only need to have ~22 equity (at absolute worst) to call?
4. I had thought about going for a check raise on the turn if V1 bet, but V1's stack size would have made that play difficult to have any success as any bet size he opts for would leave him pot-committed with all but complete air?

Last edited by sam7595; 06-01-2021 at 01:16 AM.
1/3: Line check with TT in CO vs. BTN 3! Quote
06-01-2021 , 02:54 AM
I think that when you bet the turn, you are committed to the hand and should have probably shoved when the FDFD missed the river. You can't really fold the river if he shoves behind. By not betting the river, I think in most cases, you let him off the hook to check back Ace high hands when they may look you up for the missed draw. Or just a smaller pair...9's and 7's are realistically the same hand here.

Further to the point, the stop and go, at least in this situation does very little to define your hand strength versus the opponent. I keep the flow and check the turn to him...at that point, I am likely going to check raise all in, rather than lead into him. I do understand the equity and overcard denial. Taking into account that he can have the larger overpairs as well, maybe you got off cheap with your play? Regardless, I do think there are calls on the river with ace high against your bet.
1/3: Line check with TT in CO vs. BTN 3! Quote
06-01-2021 , 03:10 AM
Check turn
1/3: Line check with TT in CO vs. BTN 3! Quote
06-01-2021 , 05:42 AM
Not a fan of turn donk. You’re preventing him from bluffing and forcing money in when you’re crushed. It’s also pretty transparent and a hand like KQss will just jam and force you to fold. What are you trying to rep?
1/3: Line check with TT in CO vs. BTN 3! Quote
06-01-2021 , 06:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmahaDonk
Not a fan of turn donk. You’re preventing him from bluffing and forcing money in when you’re crushed. It’s also pretty transparent and a hand like KQss will just jam and force you to fold. What are you trying to rep?
+1 to this. Not a good line for these reasons in particular.
1/3: Line check with TT in CO vs. BTN 3! Quote
06-01-2021 , 06:43 AM
Hi, welcome to the forum. We have found over the years that you get better answers when you don't post the results and stop the HH at the key decision point.

I would have bet a little less on the turn but the big potential mistake you were thinking about was adjusting your bet size to your hand.
1/3: Line check with TT in CO vs. BTN 3! Quote
06-01-2021 , 11:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmahaDonk
Not a fan of turn donk. You’re preventing him from bluffing and forcing money in when you’re crushed. It’s also pretty transparent and a hand like KQss will just jam and force you to fold. What are you trying to rep?
I'm not looking for an echo chamber on here.

That said, at the 1/3 level I find most players (at least who I play with at my local casino) tend to bet made hands and call for their draws regardless of their position. Some will bet their draws, especially if they are the PFR or if it's checked to them in a limped pot and they're last or near last to act. Rarely do I see a lot of players at the 1/3 level who are willing/capable of semi-bluff raising IP or semi-bluff check-raising, and especially not so to anything short of the nuts.

If the alternative on the turn is to check and allow V1 to retain betting lead, if he checks back turn and then a non-spade J or higher hits the river, I feel like I'm forced into a WA/WB check-call for any reasonably sized bet (up to around ~1/2 to 2/3 PSB) and can be folded out by any larger sizing whether it's for value or bluff.

And if the alternative on the turn is to check and V1 bets the around the same amount (~2/3 PSB) for the same reasons I donk-lead, value & protection, then are we still check-calling with the same WA/WB feeling and still hoping for a low non-spade with the same SPR dynamics if V1 bets river assuming we check again? Leading the river with a block bet size of say ~$70 which would be around 50% V1's remaining stack and still not knowing where we're at doesn't sound any better?

Without knowing anything about V1, checking and then (over?)folding the turn to a bet on this board feels too exploititive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
I would have bet a little less on the turn but the big potential mistake you were thinking about was adjusting your bet size to your hand.
In your SHIP considerations, stop-n-going shifts the betting initiative in my direction; skill factor is undetermined at this moment, hand strength is undetermined, and V1 clearly has positional advantage.

What bet size would you opt for knowing that V1 has a stack size of $230 after the flop action with this turn card and our hand?
1/3: Line check with TT in CO vs. BTN 3! Quote
06-01-2021 , 11:27 AM
Half pot. Not a big difference.
1/3: Line check with TT in CO vs. BTN 3! Quote
06-01-2021 , 12:41 PM
Sounds like this guy might be one of the only guys at the table who has half a clue? If so, I'm getting the seat change button because there is no way I'm sitting directly OOP to him the rest of the evening.

I'm fine with our open. Getting 3bet here just sucks so much. I highly doubt we're going to be profitable flatting a middling pair here OOP against a guy with half a clue. And 4betting is basically committing stacks, and there's almost no one I'm comfortable doing that against in most games for $300 (obviously depends how your 1/3 NL game plays). I might just lean to nit folding and waiting for my seat change.

The SPR is 3 on the flop and we haz somehow ended up with an overpair. Board is somewhat drawy and our overpair is quite vulnerable. I mean, we're probably committed against a wider 3betting / cbetting range than most. So I probably just check/shove here. We can rep draws and he's probably not expecting us to have overpears. We're going to hate most turn/river cards, so good luck bluffcatching down as the board gets stoopider.

As played, I'm either/or on the turn and can see reasons for donking and check/shoving.

As played, think I'm cool with the river check cuz there is so little we're getting value from with a bet (99? Are we really getting hero'd enough by A high?). But facing a bet for just << 1/2 PSB would suck cuz I'm not convinced we can fold for that price.

GattemptingtoavoidtoughspotsG
1/3: Line check with TT in CO vs. BTN 3! Quote
06-01-2021 , 01:47 PM
The villain should have bet river for value after you checked. A big leak for most 1/3 players.
1/3: Line check with TT in CO vs. BTN 3! Quote
06-01-2021 , 02:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek
Sounds like this guy might be one of the only guys at the table who has half a clue? If so, I'm getting the seat change button because there is no way I'm sitting directly OOP to him the rest of the evening.

I'm fine with our open. Getting 3bet here just sucks so much. I highly doubt we're going to be profitable flatting a middling pair here OOP against a guy with half a clue. And 4betting is basically committing stacks, and there's almost no one I'm comfortable doing that against in most games for $300 (obviously depends how your 1/3 NL game plays). I might just lean to nit folding and waiting for my seat change.

The SPR is 3 on the flop and we haz somehow ended up with an overpair. Board is somewhat drawy and our overpair is quite vulnerable. I mean, we're probably committed against a wider 3betting / cbetting range than most. So I probably just check/shove here. We can rep draws and he's probably not expecting us to have overpears. We're going to hate most turn/river cards, so good luck bluffcatching down as the board gets stoopider.

As played, I'm either/or on the turn and can see reasons for donking and check/shoving.

As played, think I'm cool with the river check cuz there is so little we're getting value from with a bet (99? Are we really getting hero'd enough by A high?). But facing a bet for just << 1/2 PSB would suck cuz I'm not convinced we can fold for that price.

GattemptingtoavoidtoughspotsG
Agree that getting in $300 stacks PF w/TT is not profitable long term, especially against anybody with half a clue.

Is additional $36 overlay of IO to set mine ($260 - [$28 X 8]) good enough to justify in your opinion? I feel like (over)folding PF is just on the cusp of being exploitable, especially given a 3! OTB from an unknown.
1/3: Line check with TT in CO vs. BTN 3! Quote
06-01-2021 , 02:54 PM
We're getting ~11:1 to purely setmine, which is pretty meh. Yeah, he'll never be able to fold an overpair due to SPR, but he's unlikely to stack off with whiffed AK/etc. or KK/etc. on ATx/etc. boards (and yet he'll still win way more than his fair of pots with a cbet on sucky boards for us).

I don't think enough opponents are exploiting us here to worry too much about overfolding. And if he is the type to exploit then we solve all that by getting out of this seat.

Don't get me wrong. In real time I'm tempted to also continue preflop. But while I realize that TT ain't 33, it will play like 33 on a bunch of runouts.

GcluelessNLnoobG
1/3: Line check with TT in CO vs. BTN 3! Quote
06-01-2021 , 06:08 PM
I would fold pre.
1/3: Line check with TT in CO vs. BTN 3! Quote
06-02-2021 , 07:17 AM
This is co vs btn against a player who may be aggro. This is much closer to a 4b than a fold pre
1/3: Line check with TT in CO vs. BTN 3! Quote
06-02-2021 , 07:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmahaDonk
This is co vs btn against a player who may be aggro. This is much closer to a 4b than a fold pre
+1

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1/3: Line check with TT in CO vs. BTN 3! Quote
06-02-2021 , 07:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek
Sounds like this guy might be one of the only guys at the table who has half a clue? If so, I'm getting the seat change button because there is no way I'm sitting directly OOP to him the rest of the evening.
This is excellent advice.

And as this poster also mentioned, fold pre. It’s nitty and feels week but I fold here.

UNLESS......It’s happening regularly enough that the three betting range is definitely wide, then it’s a four bet shove pre with 100 BB behind. We are only behind to 24 combos, gain a heap when two overs such as KQ, AJ are folded flip with AK, AQ and will win a lot of pots due to villain having to fold to our four bet often. Also, on further thought JJ made also fold.
1/3: Line check with TT in CO vs. BTN 3! Quote

      
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