Hero just sat down at table with $300, looks like a table of recreational fishy players

Hero picks up JJ in SB

UTG($225) limps,
UTG+1 ($52) limps,
CO ($200) makes it $12,
Hero ($300) calls,
BB ($500) calls
UTG calls
UTG+1 calls

Flop ($60): Th 8d 3h
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 all-in for $40, CO calls, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls

Turn ($220): 9c
Checks through

River ($220): Qs
Hero bets $60, BB calls with Q8o, everyone else folded..


UTG fish cried that he had 2 pair otf and should have bet..

I know I will get flamed for not 3betting JJ in SB preflop but I feel EXTREMELY UNCOMFORTABLE with this one hand OOP, preflop and postflop.. If I 3bet big, everyone folds and if I 3bet small, the initial raiser gets good odds to call IP.. and I get screwed postflop..

I feel like I'm either going to win small or lose big on these exact flops OOP..

Flatting pre is fine readless.

As played I'd probably lead the turn.

Definitely bet the river bigger.

About turn, don't you just hate that card? Also, bet how much?

How about squeezing the cutoff on the flop while at the same time isolating the all in?

Pre should be a 3bet the majority of the time.

I really don't know what to say to you at this point. If you don't see why and how you played this hand badly, after talking out some of the same scenarios in your similar posts, I don't think that there is much more the forum can say to you. Instead of trying to tell you why you are thinking about this hand wrong, let's just look at what happened in this particular hand, shall we?

You called preflop with maybe the best hand (we aren't entirely sure what the CO raised here, right?). That call cost you 12 dollars, right? OK so far, we certainly had more than 20% equity, making our call +EV. Our share of the 60 dollar pot is certainly more than 12 bux.

Then the flop comes, and we have an OESD AND a heart flush draw smack in the middle of limp/callers ranges. We now check and call a 40 dollar allin, and the pot is still 5 way, uh oh. What happened? It would be hard indeed to find a range for all the other players in which our JJ still has 20% equity on this flop. If UTG really had 2 pair, he's now got 35% equity and any flush draw with an overcard to our Js has about the same. That's 70% equity, and we are fighting with 2 other players for the remaining 30%. Give one of them an OESD, and we lose half of that 30%. Our positive EV call preflop has now turned into a BIG -EV call OTF.

Also, what happens now if UTG raises allin to protect his 2 pair, after we have called the 40? Now we fold (I hope that is obvious), but we have now put 52 dollars into the pot (1/6 of our starting stack), and gotten nothing for it. What happens when someone decides that it's a nice big pot, and they will stab at it OTT, and we are forced to fold then, maybe? This is not a recipe for winning poker, I hope you see that.

As it so happened, we got lucky this time, and the turn checked through, and we at least got 60 bux OTR to offset what we already put in (you never said who won the main pot, or if it was chopped), but yeah, we are only pulling a win out here maaaaybe 11% of the time, at best.

Oh, and yeah, betting this turn or raising the flop after not 3 betting preflop are both SARS, seriously. I hope you understand why.

What is SARS?

3betting the CO raiser preflop is a viable option here. Don't be paranoid. I mean exactly what board do you need to play JJ? This is a fine flop.

Lead this flop. People will play very honestly 5way and you get easy value from Tx type hands.

You don't have to be paranoid and assume that all 5 callers are going to smash the board postflop. Just play properly postflop and you'll make money.

I would rather 3 bet pre without reads.
You are playing OOP and basically set mining with JJ in SB withou initiative.
As played, my default will be C/R flop.

3bet pre. To play this hand profitably from the small blind, 3 bet to at least 40. Raising serves to lower SPR to a maximum of 2, or to take down a pot of $19 with no rake and no resistance.

Then you can get in stacks (if only BTN calls) over two streets betting 50 and 110 on favourable flops, which is the majority. It's also fine to check bad boards. No obligation to cbet.

If you get 4bet pre by btn you can fold.

By calling you are setmining, treating your JJ like 55, losing value and in turn making the likely multiway flop a lots harder to play correctly.

That's exactly what I was going to say. Might as well be pockets deuces. From a metagame perspective, if you're not 3-betting hands like JJ, you're just going to set off alarm bells when you do 3-bet. Everyone will know you have AA or KK.

Setmining with JJ against a CO opening with less than 100bbs. Winning poker at its finest.

Per urban dictionary:

"SARs stands for Severe acute respiratory syndrome. Despite massive media attention and hype, SARs has only infected 8042 people to date and only 772 of them have resulted in death (therefore having a mortality rate of 9.6%)

1) SARs outbreak in Southern Asia? Let's hype it up beyond what's necessary!"

What that has to do with poker, I don't know. It would be useful if uncommon acronyms (and text speak) were avoided.

I really don't think the flat is bad readless. There are a lot of people who won't call a 3bet without having JJ beat. In general, I agree that JJ is a mandatory 3bet, but if we just sat down, have no idea how people are playing, and are OOP, staying safe and set mining JJ isn't unreasonable. We're going to face awkward situations postflop that OP clearly doesn't feel comfortable with.

With some reads it's very different of course.

One guy said he had 2 pair, we saw another guy's cards. Plug 2 pair, JJ, Q8, a flush draw (surely we are not being paranoid to assume at least 1 flush draw), and even 1 other random hand into an equity calculator and tell me whether we have the equity to call the flop bet on this board.

Calling this flop bet is most definitely NOT playing properly postflop.

Result oriented sir.
If you cannot bet when have an overpair JJ,
why not folding as failed to set mine??


Sent from my SHV-E170K using 2+2 Forums

Grunge:
Just calling w/JJ in SB here is fine if you just sat down/don't know any of the players.

Flop: Bet out here! About 40. This is a good flop for JJ, bet out and if original raiser reraises fold.

As played: Once UTG+1 gets all in for 40 and original raiser just calls along with others, this is easiest shove ever for you. All in!

Turn as played: All in, if this gave someone a gutshot to beat you, say "nice hand".

As far as playing JJ preflop and raising and winning small, what's wrong with that? If you have AK preflop and raise and everyone folds, that's fine, right?

This^. Ok you don't have to 3-bet JJ 100% of the time.
But for the love of anything decent if you're not re-raising pre, fire a bet on that flop,
and shove over that 40 all-in.

Good gracious.

I would 3bet preflop. The limpers are shortstacked, as is the LP raiser (only 67bbs), so this is shortstackish poker where we should just be fastplaying our big hands, imo. JJ should be a powerhouse here, and even though we are OOP, this hand isn't going to get drawn out too many streets in a 3bet pot. I'd be much more cooler with a flat if we were all playing deeper (ETA: Actually, if just one of the limpers and us were deep, and that limper wasn't exactly ABC, I think you could then start making arguments for flatting).

I don't mind checking the flop, mostly to see if I'm able to get away from my hand for cheap here if fireworks break out behind me. But I also wouldn't hate a donk. As played, kinda tricky spot. Any reads on the CO (as in would he just call a bet with overs with lots of players still to react)? Depending on reads on CO, I think I nit fold here could be ok.

Wow, weird flop action that a bunch of others called (indicating that no one should have a monster on this drawy board in a big pot).

I think I shove the turn. QJ/T9/76 did get there, and those are possible hands, but we have blockers to QJ. We have less than a ~PSB left against most opponents, our hand could be good, the most obvious draws didn't come in, and we have outs if we're behind.

As played, river is a super easy shove with these stack sizes / pot sizes. Let's just hope 2 pair or whatever can't fold.

GcluelessNLnoobG